When They Just Can’t Win, Part 8 – Trump is Bad!

Seems like those unfriend and block buttons really are the only defense people have when you go through their claims and start refuting them one by one.

Here we go again.

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One Liberal's SLANT on Politics's photo.
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Athena Brown

Athena Brown How is he a “con man”?

He actually isn’t a liar – that would be Hillary. Trump is just wrong a lot because he doesn’t research the facts before speaking.

My challenge still stands – please show me 2 things Trump has ever said or done that was racist.

I’m also not sure how he’s a religious biggot… in fact this is the first time I’m seeing that one. Links? Evidence?

No one cares if he’s twice divorced. Most people have been divorced at least once. That’s life. We fall in love, it doesn’t work out, we split.

Haven’t researched the university claim.

Links on him not paying taxes?

My challenge also includes Trump ever saying or doing 2 things that were sexist. I’ll also accept some other demonstration from when he’s ever “treated women like trash”.

Being a political OUTSIDER is actually a plus, not a minus.

The only thing in this list I’d agree with is the 4 bankruptcies, and I’ll agree he doesn’t have the best manners, but that’s hardly a prime issue.

Athena Brown
Athena Brown Oh, and yea – I’m on the right, and I want him president.
Austin Galante

Austin Galante http://trumpthemovie.com

25 years ago, Donald Trump suppressed this documentary. It’s time the truth comes out.
trumpthemovie.com
Athena Brown

Athena Brown ^ Come onnnnnnn. I’m not paying to watch a movie on a bunch of stuff I could probably

>> refute
^^^ for free

like I usually do. If you need time to find the source material online go ahead.

Austin Galante
Austin Galante Oh shit, they ate charging to watch it now. I watched it for free. Maybe there is a link to watch it free. Very informational. He’s a piece of shit.
Austin Galante
Austin Galante And off the top of my head, telling Megan Kelly that “she must have blood coming out of her whatever”, is a pretty fucking sexist thing to say to a woman; simply for giving his winey ass questions he didn’t like.
That is a demeaning way to put her down when he was getting real questions that made him look bad.
Athena Brown

Athena Brown What I don’t get is how Trump can insult literally *EVERYONE* who is male, and insult them in every creative way he can think of, over and over again until they start dropping out of the race:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx3K-jr4q6g

…………….. but if he insults a woman ONE TIME…. that’s sexist.

No, my friend… that’s equality. If you can’t stand up and take the hits like the men do, and you need special coddling, then you’re in the wrong business.

I’m a woman, and could run as an Oregon state representative. I don’t. Why? Because I know I don’t have what it takes. I don’t want to handle *that* level of heat day in and day out – waking up each day and seeing half the city calling me vile names just because I’m with one party or the other. But if I did run for a seat, then I absolutely would expect every bit of what the men get, because that’s what equality is all about. If you can’t take the hits, get out of the race. I believe in equality, so I don’t think women get special treatment, or need to have their hands held every step of the way. Hillary doesn’t. Sarah doesn’t. Jill doesn’t. Trump could – and does – insult them, but they can take it.

And they fire right back.
.

Nicole Greazel
Nicole Greazel Now Athena, I know you’re going to deny all of this or else not want to read any of the articles but here is evidence of everything from this picture. And let’s not forget about him mocking a reporter with a disability. How you can still defend him baffles me.
Like · Reply · 1 · 4 hrs
Nicole Greazel
Athena Brown

Athena Brown >> Now Athena, I know you’re going to deny all of this or else not want to read any of the articles

^^^ What the actual f*ck…. please show me one single debate I’ve ever been in during my entire **history** on facebook where I haven’t read an article someone else posted as evidence. Hell at LEAST 9 times out of 10 I read the article and the person who’s posting it hasn’t.

>> but here is evidence of everything from this picture.

^^^ Yea you posted like 6 different links at once, so it’s going to take a while.

>> And let’s not forget about him mocking a reporter with a disability. How you can still defend him baffles me.

^^^ First that’s not an example of racist or sexist, so it doesn’t actually answer the challenge I posted. Second, Trump says he didn’t know the person was disabled. If he did know, then yea that was a real crap thing to do, sure. But the question was still about him being racist or sexist.

Nicole Greazel
Nicole Greazel I wasn’t claiming that it was racist or sexist. It just showed what kind of person he can be. But as I figured that would happen, you defended him and that was to be expected.
Athena Brown

Athena Brown Going through them now.

>> *First Link*

^^^ Consider this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4604reEqk0

Further: Trump maintains he didn’t know the person he was referring to was disabled, and this is a reasonable defense. It’s possible he was just mocking him, the way he would mock anyone else, and the person just happened to also be disabled.

But okay, lets consider for a moment that Trump vividly recalled this specific person was disabled and was deliberately going to make fun of his disability, completely removed from all other things being said at that moment. That’s not racist, it’s not sexist, and although it would be considered crude and immature, it’s not enough to switch my vote over to a manipulative liar who’s rigged the democratic elections from the beginning. So moving on.

>> *Second Link*

——————
Late last month, on “Good Morning America,” “CBS This Morning,” and other political talk shows, Marco Rubio called Donald Trump “a con artist.”
——————

^^^ Oh now THERE’S a good source! Rubio, who was fighting with Trump viciously for the nomination, and got beat in his own state. Yea, I’m sure this guy is going to be totally unbiased and present only the evidence.

Here’s another:

———————
Rubio implied that Trump’s Presidential campaign was another instance of intentional deception. It’s a message we’ve heard not just from Rubio, but from Ted Cruz and Mitt Romney, as well as various pundits.
———————

^^^ Okay, so his opponents called him a con artist. Therefore, he is.

Now lets look at what Hillary’s opponents have called her, and believe everyone one of them without question, shall we? Because we know those are unbiased sources we can trust.

One more:

———————-
A grifter takes advantage of a person’s confidence for his own specific ends—ends that are often unknowable to the victim and unrelated to the business at hand. He willfully deceives a mark into handing over his trust under false pretenses. He has a plan. What ultimately sets con artists apart is their intent.
———————-

^^^ Sorry but this describes Hillary to a T. Lets move on.

>> *Third Link*

———————-
But there’s only one truly massive liar in this race: Donald Trump. When Politico attempted to measure how many lies Trump told over the course of 4.6 hours of speeches, they found that he lied, on average, once every five minutes. When Huffington Post catalogued his lies over the course of just one town hall event, they came up with 71 lies.
———————-

^^^ Alright, lets consider I’m having a discussion about the American revolutionary war.

I say that the war ended July 4th, 1776. Sounds reasonable, right?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolutionary_War <— Nope! September 3rd, 1783! That’s when the war ended.

Now……….. did I **LIE** about when the war ended? Or was I simply wrong? Because I’d say I was wrong. Now if I knew the war ended in 1783, and was deliberately telling you on purpose that it ended 1776 because I was trying to GET something from you – well that would describe Hillary, not Trump.

Trump is wrong a lot because he doesn’t research the facts before he speaks. Once elected, this can be fixed, as he’ll be surrounded by people whose job it is to do that very research.

Hillary f*ing LIES. She knows what she’s saying isn’t true, but will say it anyway. She’ll change her position to whatever she thinks will get votes. She’ll promise anyone anything. THAT is what makes a liar a liar. That can’t be fixed by having knowledgeable people around you either.

Moving on

>> *Fourth link*

(getting long so going to hit enter then answer in the next post)

Athena Brown

Athena Brown From link:

>> . The ‘total and complete shutdown’ of Muslims entering the U.S.

^^^ He was referring to Muslims from the middle east. You heard about the terror attacks in France lately? … or Germany? Does Brussels ring a bell? Can you figure out why the UK left the EU? Are other European countries on high alert because thy think it’s fun?

That truck that drove through and killed 80 people last week?

…………….. NONE of that makes a convincing argument for why Muslims from that area ought to be halted until we have a better vetting process? I mean sure you can disagree and that’s fine. I hear ya. “Let them in no matter what – it’s our principle!” I disagree, though I can see where you’re coming from.

But please don’t feed me this racist xenophobic BS. There are solid reasons behind wanting this to happen.

Also, that part about Trump being surrounded by experts to do the research? Well that happened – which is why Trump has recently changed his position, and is now more accepting of allowing immigrants from that region. After all, his original statements included “. . . until we can figure out what’s going on!”

>> 2. ‘I’m a negotiator like you folks’

^^^ This is listed as “most offensive thing ever”. Suuuuuuuure it is.

And we’re talking about Jews here.

Most. Offensive. Thing. You can say about Jews. Is that they’re negotiators.

I … you… just… posiahfqpehfpiwuehywuerhwsdf okay.

>> “Is there anyone in this room who doesn’t negotiate deals?” he joked.

^^^ Because joking about being a good negotiator IS ABSOLUTELY THE WORST THING THAT HAS EVER HAPPENED TO JEWS OMFG SERIOUSLY YOU GUYS WHY DOES HE NOT JUST CHANGE HIS NAME TO ADOLF TRUMP RIGHT NOW!!!

I swear to f*ing god the desperation to vilify this man is so incredible that people just don’t know when to quit.

>> 3. ‘the blacks’

^^^ http://www.slate.com/…/black_american_versus_african… <— yea. This.

>> 4. ‘I am the least racist person there is’

^^^ Entirely true. I’m still waiting for even 2 examples of this man ever doing or saying anything that was racist.

>> 5. ‘Laziness is a trait in blacks’

^^^ There’s no verification that Trump ever said this. It appears in a book that was written by a former disgruntled employee of Trump that hated him and had an axe to grind. The book is filled with all sorts of filth about Trump that you might expect from someone trying to get revenge on him, and is based on hearsay and pure demonizing.

>> 6. ‘a well-educated black’

^^^ I’m going to go ahead and move on to the next link, this is getting silly.

See the link above. They like to be called “blacks” – which makes perfect sense. After all, I’m not a European American…. I’m white.

And sure. Being “well-educated” is the most offensive thing you can say about someone. This page is no longer worth my time, so I’m moving on.

>> *Fifth Link*

——————-
Trump trumped his prior statements on Islam with his most incendiary proposal to date: a “total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States.”
——————-

^^^ Yea we talked about this. Scroll up.

Athena Brown

Athena Brown Last one. After this you can tell me how I didn’t read any of your links, didn’t respond to anything you said, “just won’t’ listen”, lalala – pretty much what everyone else says once everything has been systematically gone through and addressed and they’ve got nothing left to say.

>> *Sixth Link*

> First “insult”

—————–
“When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.”
—————–

^^^ Now, explain to me how this means “Mexican’s are rapist”.

Because I’m reading here that there are rapist in Mexico, and Mexico’s economic and judicial policies are creating an environment where their criminals are wanting to cross into the United States.

Trump is acknowledging that some of these are good people. He’s said utterly nothing about Mexicans living in Mexico.

Now, if you know of ANOTHER source where he said “Mexicans are rapist”, please show me and I’ll change my mind. Or if you can show me 2 other examples, anywhere, at any time, from any place you’d like, of Trump being either racist or sexist, I’ll change my mind then too.

I guess until then, because I’m daring to ask the questions and have an open mind, that I’ll just have to be a racist.

> Second “insult”

——————-
Sit down, you weren’t called
——————-

^^^ Uh… okay? If you weren’t called and it’s not your turn, then you can’t just talk anyway because you’re a special snowflake and you feel like it. Raise your hand and wait your turn like everyone else.

——————
Go back to Univision
——————

^^^ ……………. and?… like, did this guy actually work for Univision? I’m not seeing the insult here.

——————
Do you think Trump was communicating with security to have you thrown out?
——————

^^^ If you are disrupting the conference, then yes, Trump has every goddam right to throw you out. You can’t stand there and ask questions OVER another reporter who is ALSO trying to ask a question. For f*cks sake.

> Third “insult”

[mocking disability] – we talked about this one. Scroll up.

> Fourth “insult”

^^^ [Total and complete shut down of Muslims] – we talked about this one. Scroll up.

> Fifth insult (no air quotes this time)

——————–
“He’s not a war hero” [John McCain, who was captured]
——————–

^^^ Okay, legit point this time. That was out of line. This definitely counts against Trump.

See if you found a BUNCH of them like this, that would be a persuasive reason to change my mind and switch my vote. But finding a legitimate problem once in a blue moon, when you compare this to Hillary, makes it no contest. Trump is simply the better choice by a long shot. I can put up with a president who occasionally says something off base.

> Sixth “insult”

[Trump makes a beautiful point here that he’s only against ILLEGAL immigration]

^^^ Why is this one even included in the list? This isn’t an insult at all. This is actually helping Trump’s case.

> Seventh and Eigth “insult”

[Insulting Megan Kelly and Rosie O’Donald]

^^^ So Trump can talk smack about literally every man he sees, but when he insults a woman, that’s sexism?

Sorry, I think men and women are equal. If you’re going to work in politics, you’re going to have some heat thrown your way. Now if Trump can insult literally all the male candidates over and over and call them all sorts of vicious names, and no one bats and eye, then he says something about a woman and that’s “sexist” – you’ll get why feminism is no longer about equality. If you need special coddling, you’re in the wrong business.

> Ninth “insult”

————————-
“I won’t do an interview unless they pay me!”
————————-
out of arguments have to block
^^^ *yawn*

> 10th “insult”

[Insults Rand Paul]

^^^ Thankfully Rand is male. If he were female, that’d be SEXIST and it would mean he HATES WOMEN.

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Annnnnnnd that last post didn’t make it.  When I tried to hit enter, it came back with that “cannot post” message, and of course at this point I know exactly what that means.  I’m basically saving just about every thread I get into at this point.


When They Just Can’t Win, Part 7 – Mario Brothers and White Privilege

Yea, as you might expect from the title, this one’s gonna be filled with Anita Sarkeesian style antics.

This one was particularly difficult for me, as it involved a good friend of mine from the LGBT “community”, who I supported and gave encouragement to, and even shared several facebook groups with.  But apparently that means nothing when you question the SJW narrative that mandates white guilt.

The thing of is though… this isn’t just any white-shaming.  This was, and I’m dead serious…. “Mario is white, and that helped you get a job, so you’re privileged!”  Go ahead and read below.  That’s seriously the argument.  I was smart enough to start saving the thread right from the start.

In this particular debate, I was *extra* nice about it, deciding to be as polite as I could be, and simply ask questions about the points put forward.  Apparently even THAT is just too much, and my friend decided to block me.  That was really the point I decided that I could no longer be a part of that community anymore.  This is beyond ridiculous.

Anyway, here it is.  Enjoy.

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I am trying to think of playable video game characters who fit these parameters: Human, not white, not Asian; and I am having a really hard time. I never realized before that there really aren’t many, and I definitely think that is due to my white privilege.

The ones I was able to think of off hand are:

BD Joe from Crazy Taxi
Sazh from Final Fantasy XIII
Barrett from Final Fantasy VII
Edgar from Quartet (I am really reaching here)
Ratonhnhaké:ton/Connor from Assassin’s Creed III

I am sure there have to be others I cannot think of, do any of you have any ideas?

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Dani Fox
Dani Fox Altair Assassin’s creed
Like · Reply · 2 · 1 hr
Sarah Cazee-Widhalm
Sarah Cazee-Widhalm Also from AC: Connor Kenway, Aveline de Grandpre, and Adewale. Aveline and Adewale were the main characters of the DLC games that were released alongside the main game for their respective years.
Amie Annsa
Amie Annsa Jax from Mortal Combat, Dee Jay and Balrog from Street Fighter 2
Wenda Rhiannon Rose
Wenda Rhiannon Rose Shantae (technically she’s half-genie, so I don’t know if that counts tho)
Like · Reply · 1 · 1 hr
Adrian Cardoza
Adrian Cardoza Black guy from FFXIII
Dani Fox
Adrian Cardoza
Adrian Cardoza Lucio from Overwatch
Adrian Cardoza
Adrian Cardoza RE 5 black chick
Amie Annsa
Amie Annsa I said Sazh, but the other two are totally good ones. One is even a female of color which is so rare.
Adrian Cardoza
Adrian Cardoza Yeah I didn’t know that black dudes name.
Athena Brown

Athena Brown [And here’s where the fun starts!] I would have to strongly disagree with the white privilege idea. When you asked that question, my very first thought was Punch-Out. Crazy characters from all over the globe, including the original Mike Tyson himself (honestly not sure how Glass Joe being white gives me any sort of privilege in my day-to-day life).

Oh and also, there’s Track and Field II from the NES!

Athena Brown's photo.
Wenda Rhiannon Rose
Wenda Rhiannon Rose White woman strongly disagrees with white privilege… #notsurprised [My skin colour dictates what opinions I’m allowed to have.  Nope, not racist at all.]
Like · Reply · 2 · 42 mins
Athena Brown

Athena Brown Yea, I disagree that having a white character in a video game fits the definition of privilege, which is “an advantage granted to a group of people, usually due to some immutable factor, to which other people are not entitled”. Mario being white does not help me get a job or help me get housing. He doesn’t reduce my bills or make it easier to see a doctor.  [Now keep a close eye on how polite I’m going to be about this from here on out.  Amie was a good friend of mine, so unlike some of the other debates, my tone for the rest of this is carefully measured.  I approach this by asking questions, and asking for evidence.]

I didn’t say white privilege doesn’t exist. If you can demonstrate, for example, evidence showing that a white person gets less sentencing for the same crime, that would be an “advantage” – and if its for no other reason than he’s white, that would be an “immutable factor”. That would fit the definition of “privilege”.

The presence of one instance of something happening does not preclude the existence of it happening elsewhere, and each individual assertion carries it’s own burden of proof.

Amie Annsa
Amie Annsa They have to be playable characters, as well as human. I really wouldn’t count characters with no name either as they really arent characters as such.
Like · Reply · 1 · 35 mins
Amie Annsa
Amie Annsa Having white video game characters be the majority of characters is really a form of privlige as that helps to reinforce the idea that white is the normal and the default. Its the same with PoC representation in any art/media form. I never really thought about it because I am white and with that I am shielded from thinking about why there aren’t more depictions of people like me in media (not including the whole trans thing). It does overall lead to discrimination against people of color in subtle ways that people don’t realize as people in positions of power (hiring positions for example) [There you go.  Mario being white leads to me getting hired.  Now lets ask some innocent questions regarding this claim and see what happens.] also see white people and their norms (think about what’s considered professional) as being more of the standard and baseline.
Chastity Julian
Chastity Julian Actually white privilege also falls into having something more readily available because of your race. In this case it’s non white playable main characters for video games. You’re white so this is your white privilege making you blind to this but people really enjoy having relatable characters in their media. And their race being represented in the media.
Part of that PRIVILEGE we as white people have is the ability to be anyone in a videogame because of our race. We have the privilege of not being more commonly reduced to thugs or back up characters in media.
Like · Reply · 1 · 27 mins
Wenda Rhiannon Rose
Wenda Rhiannon Rose I wouldn’t bother arguing with her; anyone whose opinion she doesn’t like she just publicly shames on her MRA blog [4th Wavers stands for 4th Wave FEMINISTS!!!  Doesn’t matter though.  We’re still somehow MRA.]
Like · Reply · 1 · 25 mins
Athena Brown

Athena Brown I’m pretty sure people understand that being black is normal though. I’m also not connecting the claim of being seen as normal with any actual advantage received, which is a necessary part of being privileged.

Can you demonstrate evidence that white people in video games contributes to discrimination against PoC?

>> Actually white privilege also falls into having something more readily available because of your race.

^^^ Privilege *must* include “advantage”. If poison mushrooms were more readily available to my race, that wouldn’t be a privilege. Why? Because it is not an advantage. The advantage has to be there for it to be a privilege.

>> You’re white so this is your white privilege making you blind to this

^^^ Sure. That’s why I’m asking for evidence. Maybe I really *DON’T* know. [Like I said, very measured.] So I’m taking the definition of the word “privilege”, and asking where the advantage is according to your claims.

>> but people really enjoy having relatable characters in their media.

^^^ I can relate to Leonardo from the TMNT, and he’s not even human. So this claim doesn’t stand.

>> Part of that PRIVILEGE we as white people have is the ability to be anyone in a videogame because of our race.

^^^ Really? Athena Brown can be in a video game?

Because I don’t think Mario is white, Athena is white, therefore, Athena is in a video game really works.

>> I wouldn’t bother arguing with her; anyone whose opinion she doesn’t like she just publicly shames on her MRA blog

^^^ I don’t have an MRA blog. I’m a feminst, and 4th Wavers is a feminist blog. You can see more about what 4th Wave Feminism is here: https://4thwavers.wordpress.com/about-this-site/

4th Wave Feminism has three goals.  This distinguishes it from egalitarianism. First, much…
Wenda Rhiannon Rose
Wenda Rhiannon Rose Yeah I do recommend you take a look at her blog, it’s very…ahem…enlightening.
Chastity Julian
Chastity Julian I stopped reading at you claiming as a white person you are so sure people know being black is normal. [Now keep this one mind.  Being black isn’t “normal”.] Like, I’m sure as a white person you know exactly what it’s like being black. I’m fucking dying laughing.
Like · Reply · 1 · 19 mins
Athena Brown

Athena Brown ^ So if I went outside right now, and asked people “is being black normal”…….. what would they say? [Everyone reading this, please leave your feedback.  Do most of you think black people are normal?  Is it really me being blind to my white priivlege that makes me think we live in a world where they’re normal, but no one else except me, and others who are “blind-by-privilege” think so?]

Because I’ll actually do that with a camera phone and youtube it. I’m extremely confident I know what people will say. I’m willing to bet a side of you also does, and you’re just being contrary.

Debbie Leeflang
Debbie Leeflang Grand Theft Auto has some ethnic characters. Though it’s perpetuating some terrible stereotypes with them.
Like · Reply · 1 · 45 mins
Amie Annsa
Amie Annsa I couldn’t agree more.
Chastity Julian
Chastity Julian I’d have to strongly AGREE to the white privilege thing. Sure there are a bunch of fighter game characters that aren’t white/Asian but most video games in which there is only one main character they are white, second most Asian. In the fighter games, in my opinion, the other diversities are just so they have more character types, but still MOST or white/Asian. You could also say any sports video games have non white/Asian, but hey those are actually MORE REALISTIC because they are based on actual people and teams. Shock.
Chell from Portal is said to be Hawaiian because she is modeled after Hawaiian actress Alésia Glidewell, though I’m not sure if that’s confirmed.
I’m surprised no one said Skyrim, but I guess they aren’t real races…?
The Prince of Persia game guy..?
Is Mario white? I mean, he’s white but does that count?
I honestly can’t think of any others…
Like · Reply · 3 · 33 mins
Chastity Julian
Chastity Julian There are more games I can think of that have animals or made up animals/aliens as main/playable characters than non white/Asian.
Athena Brown

Athena Brown So how does that actually help me then in my every day life?

Privilege necessarily includes “advantage”. That’s a required part of privilege. So what advantage do I get from Mario being white?

Sofia Alexander
Sofia Alexander You get a character, actually countless characters that you can more easily identify with and empathize with, and you don’t have to imagine yourself as something you’re not in order to put yourself in their boots, so to speak.
Like · Reply · 3 · 22 mins
Chastity Julianwon the argument
Chastity Julian You have the advantage of being white and whining that something that is heavily white isn’t helping you get a job. Boo hoo.
But do you know what? There are other people in the world! So lets bring up an idea of other humans and other jobs than your line of work, shall we?
You can look up TONS of reports of people in the specific line of creating video games. First off, white people and Asians STILL get these jobs more than any other race in America. Past that if someone tries to create a video game with a non white/Asian main character it’s REALLY unlikely to go through, and even less likely to be popular. You can look this up OR you can just look at the lack of titles there are for this. It’s really obvious.
And you? It does personally help you. Having everything white washed makes your race less scary, and more relatable to the common other person. You aren’t as heavily stereotyped and even if you are, hell, there a billions of other characters to wash that one away. So when you walk into an interview, you’re your own person. You’re not a stereotype people see over and over as back up, not so great, characters in media. So yes, it helps you. Congrats.
I also think it’s funny you clearly didn’t read the original post well at all. Because you’re fighting that lots of white characters aren’t privilege (which is laughable) but the original post was of her saying she PROBABLY DIDN’T NOTICE because of HER PRIVILEGE. Not even that it was a privilege in the first place. Yuk yuk yuk.
Like · Reply · 3 · 21 mins
Athena Brown

Athena Brown [Notice how I’m responding point by point, with the “>>” being copy pasted from her, and the “^^^” being my reply]

>> You get a character, actually countless characters that you can more easily identify with and empathize with, and you don’t have to imagine yourself as something you’re not

^^^ I don’t have to imagine myself as something I’m not?

Okay, so… Mario is an Italian Plumber.

… but because he’s white… and I’m white… I don’t have to imagine I’m an Italian Plumber? … because I’m neither Italian, nor a plumber. So if I wanted to imagine myself as being him…

I’m reallyyyyyyyy not seeing how you’re connecting the logic on that one. I’m a mental health worker and social researcher. I’m not aware of any video game character who fits that description, so if I wanted to imagine I was any of them, I would most certainly be imagining myself to be something I’m not.

Which is actually part of the fun. It wouldn’t be fun at all to imagine I am something that I already am.

>> You have the advantage of being white and whining that something that is heavily white isn’t helping you get a job.

^^^ Well first, disagreeing with you is not an advantage that only I have for being white. In the US, everyone of every race has their freedom of speech protected. So again, this claim also does not stand.

You’re making the claim that a video game character being white gives me an advantage. I’m asking you what that advantage is. I used getting a job as an example. If I do have some kind of advantage – and thus, privilege – please do point it out to me. I really want to know.

>> But do you know what? There are other people in the world! So lets bring up an idea of other humans and other jobs than your line of work, shall we?

^^^ Sure. Show me how I have an advantage that other people do not, and how I got that advantage from video game characters being white please.

>> You can look up TONS of reports of people in the specific line of creating video games. First off, white people and Asians STILL get these jobs more than any other race in America.

^^^ So you’re saying people get jobs making video games, and the reason is because video game characters are white?

Okay, interesting claim. Do you have a study I can look at? A published report? Statistics? I would really be interested to see that claim validated.

Unfortunately, claims made without evidence are dismissed without evidence. Sorry bout that.

>> Past that if someone tries to create a video game with a non white/Asian main character it’s REALLY unlikely to go through, and even less likely to be popular.

^^^ Would absolutely LOVE to see the evidence on that one! Links please?

>> You can look this up OR

^^^ Whoa whoa whoa! Hold up there!

You might wanna look up how the whole “Burden of Proof” thingy works. Here’s a helpful link: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/burden-of-proof – the one making the claim has the burden of proof. So it’s you who’s gotta cough up those reports.

That’s how you get your claim accepted.

>> And you? It does personally help you.

^^^ Great! How?

>> Having everything white washed makes your race less scary, and more relatable to the common other person.

^^^ http://dailycaller.com/…/poll-shows-young-white-men…/ <— soooo… how did that happen? [Sorry the links are a bit cut-off from facebook’s automatic shortening… hopefully you can get an idea of the source from what you can still see]

>> You aren’t as heavily stereotyped

^^^ White men have only one thing on their mind.

They think of sex every seven seconds. http://www.gq.com/…/health-myth-does-the-average-man…

Whites are scared of other races. They’re scared they’re “losing something”. http://susanarinderle.com/dear-white-people-exactly-what…/

White’s are responsible for all sorts of horrible things and have to apologize constantly. http://www.experienceproject.com/…/White-People…/2309682

There’s even a wikipedia page of stereotypes against white people: https://en.wikipedia.org/…/Stereotypes_of_white_people… [But notice how I’m backing my claims up with links?]

So if your claim were true, how did all of this happen? Whites don’t appear to be less scary at all.In fact, there’s the proud black man, the proud Asian man, the proud Mexican, the proud lesbian, and the proud white.

Which one of those is racist? Without me telling you, and with no other information, which is it?

Long and short of it – I’m not seeing how having white video game character makes me less scary. But you’re certainly free to respond back with any of those studies you referred to earlier.

>> So when you walk into an interview, you’re your own person. You’re not a stereotype people see over and over as back up, not so great, characters in media.

^^^ Another interesting claim. How do you know that? [About as polite as I’ve ever been during one of these.  And she blocked me anyway.]

>> So yes, it helps you. Congrats.

^^^ Evidence, and I’ll change my mind.

>> I also think it’s funny you clearly didn’t read the original post well at all. Because you’re fighting that lots of white characters aren’t privilege (which is laughable) but the original post was of her saying she PROBABLY DIDN’T NOTICE because of HER PRIVILEGE.

^^^ Right, and I disagree with the notion of privilege. I did read her post. I’m just disagreeing with that part. It’s also very possible that you don’t notice things simply because you’ve always seen them and gotten used to them. Ever put something down then forget where it was?

You said that the burden of proof lies not with the person making the claim, but with someone else to disprove.
Athena Brown
Athena Brown Going to bed now. Certainly look forward to seeing links to the research you were referring to in the morning. [No one ever posted anything backing any of their claims.]

Like · Reply · 2 mins

Chastity Julian
Chastity Julian I like the part where you rant on and on but totally don’t listen to any of my points. [And there you go.  I literally just answered her >> points ^^^ in >> line ^^^ by >> line ^^^ fashion.  It looks like she didn’t even read what I posted.  She just saw a bunch of text, considered it a rant, and didn’t even look at it before concluding I didn’t listen.] Like when I say it does help you then EXPLAIN HOW and you just reply “HOW?” [One of your claims was that I’m more likely to get jobs because video game characters are white.  That’s not explaining how, that’s an utterly ridiculous statement and only increases the question of “how”] Like, are you for real bro? [Sis] Fucking dying laughing. So I’m not gonna rely to any of yours. Please tell me where you work so I can eagerly avoid it and help others avoid it. I’d really hate for you to be the one giving advice to someone. And please stop calling yourself a feminist when you are clearly a racist [Remember earlier when she said black people aren’t normal?  Now I’m the racist.]. No true feminist can be a racist. And yes, whining about how you don’t have white privilege makes you a racist in my book .
Also there is a wiki page on how to drink your own piss, doesn’t mean it’s gonna convince the masses it isn’t a bunch of bullshit. [“I can find a website that has false information on it.  Therefore any links you posted are also false.”]
http://www.wikihow.com/Drink-Urine-(Urophagia)

Many people enjoy drinking urine for a number of reasons, from religionJoseph S. Alter. Yoga in…
========================================================
.
So that’s that.  Mario being white helped me get hired at my current job.  Because he’s white, I’m seen as “normal”, so I got hired (despite being a transgender woman – and my skills, experience, and qualifications apparently had nothing to do with it).  And if I ask for an explanation as to how that even makes sense, that’s enough for a good friend to block me.

I no longer count myself as being part of the LGBT community, as I’m beginning to see that this community is just as intolerant as 3rd Wavers and SJWs in general.

I attended the Pride March in June, where I got to hear speaker after speaker explain to me how oppressed I was, and how the reason I can’t get hired is because of my identity (I’m already hired and love my job, but hey that’s probably only because Mario and Luigi were white).  I was told that because I transitioned, I’ll now get paid 77 cents for every dollar I used to get paid (as a man I got $10.00 per hour, I’m now making well over $13 per hour).  And of course, I was told how everyone hates me for being trans (except the only time I see people hating me is when I disagree with them over this kind nonsense).

Around 2 weeks ago, I had another good friend who I protested trans discrimination at Multnomah University with block me simply for asking how I, living in Portland, was a victim of the Orlando shootings, when I’m 2,000 miles away, and wasn’t shot.  I mean I understand the reason to feel bad.  But victim??…  Aren’t the victims the ones that got shot?  Asking the question is all it took to get blocked.  The very next day, another trans person who I worked with at an employment agency here in Portland had called me out and tagged me on her wall telling me I was “cruel” for asking the question.  I’ve been unfriended or blocked by so many others that I haven’t been keeping track, but it was that time getting blocked 2 weeks ago that made me re-think where I stood, and this incident that has definitely made it clear.

We are not actually a community.  You’re only allowed to remain in if you agree with the faith based dogma.  There’s a lot you must agree with, on faith, with no evidence and despite any contradictory evidence, and asking questions is forbidden.  That’s hardly what I’d call a community, and definitely not something I’d want to be a part of anyway.

When They Just Can’t Win, Part 6: These Are Getting Predictable

Not much to say in introducing this one.  We all know how this goes – 3rd Waver decides they’re going to “prove” to me in the comments section of a post that women are oppressed, they end up not being able to do that, then rage quit.

Bowing out from a discussion you’re clearly not qualified to have is always acceptable.  Trying to block or delete the entire discussion gets you a place on 4th Wavers.

=================================================

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Haley Renae [This is the little bundle of joy that we’re dealing with today] Fuck you. Don’t be disrespectful to women, tell them what to do to/with their bodies, and then tell us to calm down when we get pissed. We have a right to be angry mr male privilege! Either deal with women getting pissed at you when you say disrespectful stupid shit, or stop saying disrespectful stupid shit.

Wanna learn about feminism so you can not be a dick? Feel free to visit my feminist page with over 10,000 followers that will agree with me! We talk a lot about not sexualizing women, maybe you can learn a thing or two.

Www.Facebook.com/betasteful

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Athena Brown

Athena Brown The post isn’t telling you what to do with your body. It’s simply informing you that most men don’t find this particular thing attractive. You’re still able to do what you want.

Also there is no male privilege in the US, and I wouldn’t mind joining your page to discuss that, but I’m approximately 100% certain that I would be banned in less than a day for posting stats and statistics that you don’t agree with.

Haley Renae

Haley Renae I don’t ban people for disagreeing with me, i ban people for being disrespectful assholes who don’t follow the rules.

One example of male privilege
https://www.whitehouse.gov/issues/equal-pay

President Obama and the Administration have made significant progress to bridge the gender pay gap, but there’s more to be done.
whitehouse.gov
Haley Renae

Haley Renae Oh and it is telling women that if they have those nails, men won’t find them attractive, and that they shouldn’t wear them so men can sexualize them more

Athena Brown

Athena Brown Nowhere on the post does it say you cannot wear them. It only says they’re not attractive to men – you can still keep wearing them.

If I said “These are not attractive to Athena” – then I would only be telling you the opinion of Athena. That’s not an order to stop wearing them.

Also, women get equal pay for the same level of work. They make less at the end of a fiscal year because of decisions they make regarding their careers. https://4thwavers.wordpress.com/…/the-wage-gap-myth…/

(Update: thanks to some persuasive criticism from Free Thinking Atheist Females, which…
4thwavers.wordpress.com
Haley Renae

Haley Renae I just gave you a government link, and you send me a wordpress. Impressive… Lol

Athena Brown

Athena Brown Yea, your government link only says “the wage gap exists”. No one’s arguing about that.

The link I gave you provides no less than 11 different links to various peer reviewed sources, including a link to 50 peer reviewed studies on the wage gap, all of which uniformly reach the same exact conclusion. Lol

Haley Renae

Haley Renae Maybe you should explore my link a tad more. Or go ahead and check the US DOL because they say the same thing

Athena Brown

Athena Brown Okay then, not a problem. Lets check your link a LOT more.

From your link:

>> Equal pay is a family issue. Women make up nearly half of the U.S. labor force and are a growing number of breadwinners in their families. More women are also working in positions and fields that have been traditionally occupied by men.

^^^ Completely true. Nothing wrong so far.

>> When women are not paid fairly, not only do they suffer, but so do their families.

^^^ Also true – but if you’re making the claim that women are paid UNFAIRLY, you now carry the burden of proof to present evidence for that claim.

Because we have over 50 peer reviewed studies demonstrating this not to be the case, it’s an extraordinary claim, and will require extraordinary evidence. But back to the link:

>> Despite passage of the Equal Pay Act of 1963, which requires that men and women in the same work place be given equal pay for equal work, the “gender gap” in pay persists.

^^^ Correct. It persists for reasons outlined in the 50 peer reviewed studies I linked you too earlier.

>> In 2014, the typical woman working full-time all year in the United States earned only 79 percent of what the typical man earned working full-time all year. Phrased differently, she earned 79 cents for every dollar that he earned.

^^^ Correct again – and this hyperlinks to another page which says the exact same thing.

Again, the pay gap is real, and no one’s disputing that. It’s caused by women’s personal decisions.

>> Decades of research shows that no matter how you evaluate the data, there remains a pay gap — even after factoring in the kind of work people do, or qualifications such as education and experience

^^^ Correct, because even when they’re doing the same job with the same qualifications, women are twice as likely to work part time, 3 times as likely to call in sick, much more likely to take time off, much more likely to choose shifts that fit their lifestyle, more more likely to choose work within a field that they prefer, etc etc etc etc etc.

>> and there is good evidence that discrimination contributes to the persistent pay disparity between men and women.

^^^ To date, there has never been a single paper published anywhere in the world, concerning the pay gap in the US, that demonstrates a link between discrimination and the gap.

Alright, now your turn.

Examine *my* link a little more closely and see what you come up with.

Haley Renae

Haley Renae So the government pages are wrong because you say so? Women choose to earn less for same work?

Athena Brown

Athena Brown I just finished explaining how those pages are almost entirely right.

I get that you still haven’t clicked the link I provided, for fear that it contains evidence that refutes your narrative, but are you not even reading what I say here?

Haley Renae

Haley Renae Yes i looked at it, yes I’m reading. Yes you’re being a fucking ignorant pompous ass.

Haley Renae

Haley Renae So not all of my government links are correct, but all of your word press link is. Cute

Athena Brown

Athena Brown Okay if you looked at it and you’re reading, it should be obvious what I said. The government page you linked to is mostly correct. The wage gap is real, but it’s caused by personal decisions.

Think of it like this:

If you’re a man, and you work in the medical field:

– If you work as an orderly…………lol omg loser!
– If you work as a nurse’s aid…….lol omg loser!
– If you work as a nurse………….. lol omg loser!!!
– If you work as a doctor………… Okay, acceptable. But only as long as you keep working yourself to the bone, non-stop, to prove your worth.

And then something interesting happens when this social stigma finally pushes more than a few men to the forefront: “Typical! Men are always in charge!”

However…

If you’re a woman, and you work in medicine:

– If you work as an orderly……….. You go girl!
– If you work as a nurse’s aid…… You go girl!
– If you work as a nurse…………… You go girl!
– If you work as a doctor………….. You go girl!

^ Now if you do not have that kind of social pressure, and you’re fine no matter where you land along the job hierarchy, then you’re far less likely to push yourself as hard. That’s what every paper ever written on the subject has concluded.

>> So not all of my government links are correct, but all of your word press link is.

^^^ Most of your government link is spot on. However, there has never been a paper ever published demonstrating a link between discrimination and the wage gap. So it’s simply not true to say that there’s evidence of that discrimination when there isn’t any.

The wordpress page links you to numerous studies and pages. Like I said there’s no less than 11 links – one of which is a report compiled by the Department of Labor specifically for the White House. I not only linked the study, I pasted the highlights of the study – it concludes that the gap is caused by women’s personal decisions.

You’re very welcome to read the study! If you find it’s in error, please copy-paste the paragraphs containing the errors, and explain how they’re wrong. That’s basically what I did with your government link. I read the entire link, and acknowledged that the entire link was correct, but pointed out precisely the part that was in error. You’re very free to do that as well and show me how the wordpress link is incorrect on any of it’s claims.

It’s not incorrect simply because it’s a wordpress. Surely you’re not going to ignore the contents of the link and resort to such fallacies.

Haley Renae

Haley Renae Oh so toxic masculinity and gender roles are to blame for the wage gap because women are turned away from sciences and men are made to feel like less of men for being in anything less than macho careers.

Those aren’t seriously personal decisions. Those are society’s traditional roles being pushed on people at early ages. Something feminism fights to end btw.

Haley Renae

Haley Renae Meritocracy huh?

Athena Brown

Athena Brown ^ Not sure what post you’re replying to, because I never said anything about toxic masculinity, nor that women are turned away from sciences. Also not sure how STEM is a “macho career”.

Again, virtually every study on women in STEM fields is concordant to what every other study now says – women choose not to enter STEM fields, and instead enter other fields. For some strange reason no one has a problem that there aren’t as many women garbage collectors, and everyone’s okay with women not choosing *that* field.

It doesn’t matter if you played with barbies or tanka drugs as a kid. Your decisions as an adult is your own choice and responsibility.

Haley Renae
Haley Renae
Dude own it. You said if a man is seen in a “woman’s role” that they are made fun of and made to feel like less of a man. That is toxic masculinity!
And society pushing stereotypical gender roles cause women to turn away from stem.

http://www.cornellrooseveltinstitute.org/labeling-gender…

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2834249/

Athena Brown

Athena Brown So anytime a woman is shamed for not following a female role, that’s toxic femininity?

The first link you provided also links to a study which you can find here: http://www.uchastings.edu/…/01/double-jeopardy-report.pdf

Straight from that study:

————–
The conventional wisdom is that women haven’t
progressed in careers in STEM due to the pull of children
and early choices not to pursue math and science careers
(Moss-Racusin, Dovidio, Brescoll, Graham, & Handelsman,
2012). Some studies conclude that the relatively low
percentage of women stems from these factors and “is
not caused by discrimination” in STEM (Ceci, Williams, &
Banett, 2009; Ceci & Williams, 2011; Ceci et al
., 2011)
————-

^ It’s pretty common to see a webpage link to a study where the study refutes the webpage. You can see another such instance of this here: https://4thwavers.wordpress.com/…/the-new-york-times…/ . The narrative that women are victims is so powerful, that it simply doesn’t matter if the study you link to refutes your claims. Most 3rd Wavers are only looking for confirmation, and aren’t going to read the actual studies anyway.

But back to the study, you occasionally do find anomalies like this one:

—————–
Yet three recent studies found that gender bias also
plays a role
. One found that, even when math skills were
identical, both men and women were twice as likely
to hire a man for a job that required math (Reuben,
Sapienza, & Zingales, 2014).
—————–

You can find a step-by-step answer to exactly why this result is occasionally found here: http://readingsubtly.blogspot.com/…/the-stem-fempire…

Then you have this one:

—————–
A
third double-blind randomized study gave science
faculty at research-intensive universities application
materials of a fictitious student randomly assigned a
male or female name, and found that both male and
female faculty rated the male applicant as significantly
more competent and hirable than the female with
identical application materials (Moss-Racusin, Dovidio,
Brescoll, Graham & Handelsman, 2012)
—————–

^ What’s interesting is that the study they are referencing actually explains it’s own findings – and it has nothing to do with discrimination.

http://www.pnas.org/content/111/12/4403.full <– go ahead and read it yourself.

—– —–
However, from their first year in college, women are much less likely than men to choose a STEM major. College-graduate men outnumber women in nearly every science and engineering field (1).
—– —–

– and –

—– —–
In a controversial speech, Larry Summers (3), then President of Harvard University, advanced three hypotheses for this underrepresentation of women in science: different innate aptitudes among men and women at the high end of science-based fields; different career-related preferences among men and women; and discrimination. Although there is mounting evidence against the aptitude-based hypothesis (4⇓–6), it is difficult to show the existence of discrimination if we allow for the possibility of a sex difference in preference;
—– —–

^ One more time on those last 3 words, so that it sinks in:

—– —–
** difference **

** in **

** preference **
—– —–

When I tell you that there has NEVER BEEN A SINGLE PAPER PUBLISHED demonstrating a link between discrimination and the wage gap, I really do mean it. And if you’d like, I’ll even create a special 4th Wavers post where I will go through each and every individual study referenced on that link and show you, in step-by-step fashion, exactly how none of them provide any evidence that women are kept out of STEM fields due to discrimination.

It will be helpful the next time someone brings this up, and once again I can just drop a link into the discussion. As always they’ll resort to attacking-the-source fallacy with “just a blog” – and of course we’ll go through the exact same motions as we’ve gone through here. But at least the matter will finally be settled.

Haley Renae
Haley Renae Are you reading what you type? Willful ignorance isn’t very becoming. By the by, where did you get your male privilege. Remember i said i don’t ignore people for disagreeing with me, but i do get rid of assholes. Your holier than though condescending bullshit can kiss my ass

===================================

^ Well, darn.  Somehow as a woman, I managed to pick up male privilege?  I guess disagreeing with her is fine, as long as you eventually lose the discussion that follows.  If not, you’re “holier than though”.  I’m sure she meant “thou”, but was in too much of a rush to reach for that block button.  Probably triggered.

When They Just Can’t Win, Part 5: And They Come After Your Job!

Okay so I’m sure many of you are familiar with some of the stories shared by Thunderf00t and others, where 3rd Wave Feminist have tried to get people fired from their jobs just for disagreeing with them, and I’m sure Sargon of Akkad and others on youtube have covered this topic before.  If anyone can link me to a list of such videos that cover this topic in the comments section, I’ll be happy to hyperlink ever one of them into this opening paragraph.

I’ve seen and heard a lot of this sort of thing, but I never thought I’d actually be targeted!  Below is the entire debate, which I’m *positive* Rebecca won’t mind me posting, considering how she’s announced her intention to make the thread public and get me to lose my job.  So I figured I’d go ahead and make it public here.

Below is the exchange.  Enjoy!

—————————————————————————-

RUSH LIMBAUGH: First lady Michelle Obama has been the victim of sexism she said Wednesday, because men used to whistle at her while she walked down the…

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Athena Brown

Athena Brown Nearly everything in Michelle’s speech is based on narrative, devoid of supporting evidence, and can be immediately countered with another narrative spun the other way. It was an eye-roller and I didn’t bother to listen to longer than 20 seconds of the original speech. It’s the same sappy story of “women are victims” that the left seems to wave around with pride.

As far as Rush’s commentary goes, there’s some fair points, and some strawmen…

Rush is categorizing Michelle’s speech as being nothing more than “childhood grievances” – although this is not what Michelle was getting at. Her point was to try to draw this mythical picture that women were “kept down” and “oppressed” with all of these unfair “social expectations” and so on… it wasn’t so much her own personal childhood memories. She was trying to convince the listener that during her youth, America was a place that was unfair to women.

Rush actually does make a point in saying that Michelle lives in a country where women are deeply privileged – and Michelle herself was even MORE privileged – and yet she’s trying to find commonality with the legitimate sufferings of people in a 2nd world country.

At the 3:05 mark, Rush says “Do you know how many women would LOVE to be whistled at walking down the street???”

There’s actually nothing wrong with this statement. If you object, are you putting forward that every single woman in the United States, ubiquitously and regardless of their own personal history and the context of the situation, MUST – as part of a mandated order – HATE being whistled at?

Okay so lets say you’re a lower income, disadvantaged, single woman.

Brad Pitt rolls up in a Ferrari. He rolls down the window, checks you out…. WHISTLES…. then opens the door and offers you a ride.

This point immediately illustrates that there are plenty of situations where a woman would absolutely fall head over hills if she got whistled at by the right guy. It also illustrates that there’s nothing at all wrong with being whistled at. Men have every right to express themselves as women do.

Like · Reply · Just now

 

Jaline Williams
Jaline Williams Yo Athena, come hop on my bike, we’ll go ride down the coast, not the west one tho, just the east one.
Athena Brown

Athena Brown Babycakes liked my comment – and she NEVER likes comments! Not only that, she wants me to hop on her “bike” and give me a ride.

Feeling pretty damn epic right now. (⌐■_■)

Rebecca Loos

Rebecca Loos “Rush actually does make a point in saying that Michelle lives in a country where women are deeply privileged – and Michelle herself was even MORE privileged – and yet she’s trying to find commonality with the legitimate sufferings of people in a 2nd world country.”

Ahhh, the old “you shouldn’t complain about abuse because other people have it worse” argument. It’s a pathetically sucky argument.

“There’s actually nothing wrong with this statement.”

Actually there’s a LOT wrong with that statement beginning with the fact that it doesn’t matter if some other woman might like being catcalled (although I must say in my 53 years on this earth I’ve never met one who said she did) because that in no way makes it okay to catcall a woman who is far more likely NOT to like being catcalled.

“This point immediately illustrates that there are plenty of situations where a woman would absolutely fall head over hills if she got whistled at by the right guy.”

Your “point” is bullshit and relegates women to a role of being gold diggers. I would be just as offended by a celebrity catcalling me as I am by any other dude catcalling me.

You’re really a guy, aren’t you? I don’t know any women as actually clueless about our own experiences as you’ve come across. Also, you’ve got the logical capacity of an inebriated snail.

Rebecca Loos
Rebecca Loos Oh, and Rush Limbaugh is a misogynistic jerk and so are you, “Athena”.
Athena Brown

Athena Brown

>> Ahhh, the old “you shouldn’t complain about abuse because other people have it worse” argument.

^^^ No, you shouldn’t complain about abuse if you *weren’t*actually*abused*.

>> because that in no way makes it okay to catcall a woman who is far more likely NOT to like being catcalled.

^^^ So men aren’t allowed to express their sexuality in public? Because last I checked, women certainly are. Women can express their interest in a man, but men can’t do this to women?

I mean a woman wants to feel sexy, so she puts on a low cut tight fitting blouse before she goes out. She’s expressing herself. Now a man might find that really uncomfortable and tell her to cover up. But he’s still wrong then too, right? Because the feelings of a man don’t matter I guess.

>> Your “point” is bullshit and relegates women to a role of being gold diggers.

^^^ That’s a pretty sweeping assumption you’re making there about women – calling them all gold diggers, when that’s not what my statement implies at all. Women are attracted to handsome, successful men, and there’s nothing at all wrong with that. Calling them sexist for having such a normal attraction sounds rather sexist.

But then the flip side of the coin is men who like women with big breasts and a narrow waist, and if we want to criminalize THEIR very normal sexual attractions, then for it to be “equal” (and hence, “equality”) we need to criminalize women’s sexual attractions too?

>> I would be just as offended by a celebrity catcalling me as I am by any other dude catcalling me.

^^^ Yea I’m calling bullshit. Damn near any straight woman with a beating heart would enjoy getting hit on by a tall, handsome, successful man.

>> You’re really a guy, aren’t you?

^^^ No, I’m not. Are you? You don’t seem to understand how normal sexuality and dating work for women, so it’s hard to tell if you’re actually a woman or not.

(Oh I’m sorry, was that offensive?)

>> Oh, and Rush Limbaugh is a misogynistic jerk and so are you, “Athena”.

^^^ First, I never said Rush wasn’t misogynistic. It’s possible that he is, as I don’t listen to his other broadcasts. I’m only saying I haven’t found much wrong with what he’s saying in THIS broadcast, and I certainly didn’t hear him say anything misogynistic HERE.

And why is my name in quotes? Athena is my real name.

 

Rebecca Loos

Rebecca Loos “So men aren’t allowed to express their sexuality in public?”

No person has a right to impose their sexuality on another person without that person’s permission whether it is public or private. Catcalling is imposing their desires on non-consenting passers-by. No, that is not acceptable behavior out here in the world of people with consideration for others.

“No, you shouldn’t complain about abuse if you weren’t *actually*abused*.”

Catcalling IS abuse for me. It triggers the sexual assault my grandfather perpetrated on me. In fact it is remarkably similar to that assault.

“Women are attracted to handsome, successful men, and there’s nothing at all wrong with that.”

Women are attracted to considerate, mature, and emotionally responsible men — which lets out those who catcall — and there’s nothing at all wrong with that.

“…we need to criminalize women’s sexual attractions too?”

Any woman who is imposing her sexual attractions on another person without their consent is absolutely being disgusting and needs to face the consequences of that action.

“Yea I’m calling bullshit.”

Call it what you like — it’s true. I guess that’s the difference between being mature enough to value substance over window dressing.

“No, I’m not.”

Well you’re a piss-poor woman who endorses misogyny with abandon. What a sad statement that makes about you.

“You don’t seem to understand how normal sexuality and dating work for women, so it’s hard to tell if you’re actually a woman or not.”

Catcalling has nothing to do with “normal sexuality and dating”. It really doesn’t. It’s men acting aggressively in public against women when they think they can get away with it. Do you HONESTLY believe women say: “Oh, how attractive — you’re whistling at me and you don’t even know me. We should date.”

Utter bullshit.

“…and I certainly didn’t hear him say anything misogynistic HERE.”

Both you and he were being misogynistic. It’s not my fault you don’t know misogyny when it’s shoved in your face.

And your name is in quotes because I don’t actually believe it is “Athena” nor do I actually believe you’re a woman. You’ve expressed some seriously deluded opinions about how women respond to catcalling so at this point, I’m actually wondering if you’re a human being at all. You’ve certainly shown no indication of anything resembling empathy or compassion.

Athena Brown

Athena Brown >> No person has a right to impose their sexuality on another person without that person’s permission whether it is public or private.

^^^ Right, but whistling is no more imposing upon you as your tits hanging out are imposing upon them.

>> Catcalling is imposing their desires on non-consenting passers-by. No, that is not acceptable behavior out here in the world of people with consideration for others.

^^^ Well, the way you dress is imposing your sexuality on me. So I suggest you cover up.

>> Catcalling IS abuse for me.

^^^ “For me” is the key term here. Saying “hello” and “god bless you” has been cited by 3rd Wave agencies like Hollaback as a form of catcalling. Making sounds with your mouth like “psst” has also been cited, and is put in the same category as “public masturbation” for no other reason than a woman *MIGHT* feel abused by someone going “psst”.

For me, the way your dressed is imposing your sexuality on me. How is that not just as offensive?

It’s not of course because women have the right to express themselves, while men don’t, because when they do it you’ll say it’s “imposing” (unless you like the guy – then it’s suddenly stops being catcalling).

>> It triggers the sexual assault my grandfather perpetrated on me. In fact it is remarkably similar to that assault.

^^^ As a mental health worker, I would suggest that you seek therapy for your triggers and previous abuse, rather than expect the entire world to stop doing the thing that triggers you. Saying “hello” may just as well trigger a person, and it honestly would not surprise me at all at this point if someone launched a social justice campaign to stop people (read: men) from saying “hello” because it might trigger someone.

>> Women are attracted to considerate, mature, and emotionally responsible men

^^^ Oh, so *THATS* why the prettiest girl in school is always dating the nerd with the taped glasses who makes good grades – and not the bad boy on the motorcycle.

>> Any woman who is imposing her sexual attractions on another person without their consent is absolutely being disgusting and needs to face the consequences of that action.

^^^ Alright ladies! You heard her. No more hitting on dudes, that’s off limits from now on.

It’s not like any straight men out there actually *WANT* you imposing yourself on them. I mean just imagine the horror they must feel! A woman in a skin tight t-shirt walking up to them out of nowhere… telling them they’re hot??? Do you think men WANT that??? You think they WANT hot attractive women winking at them and asking for their numbers???

……. seriously.

>> Do you HONESTLY believe women say: “Oh, how attractive — you’re whistling at me and you don’t even know me. We should date.”

^^^ Take a look for yourself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPf1-lFn0Us <— now, imagine if a guy did this. We’d have nothing but horrible things to say.

But when a woman does it, it’s totally fine.

If I were attracted to men, and a good looking man standing next to an Aston Martin whistled at me and asked me to come over and talk to him, why on earth would I not?

>> And your name is in quotes because I don’t actually believe it is “Athena” nor do I actually believe you’re a woman.

^^^ See pic.

Now, prove to us that your real name is Rebecca, and that you’re not actually a man in a dress.
.

Athena Brown's photo.

Like · Reply · 5 mins

 

Rebecca Loos

Rebecca Loos “Right, but whistling is no more imposing upon you as your tits hanging out are imposing upon them.”

YOU are the one who claimed catcalling is “normal sexual behavior”. I am merely the one pointing out that it isn’t consensual and that makes it wrong. My body coverings are not equivalent in any way to someone catcalling another person. You can look away from something you find visually offensive. You cannot unhear a catcall.

“Well, the way you dress is imposing your sexuality on me. So I suggest you cover up.”

I exposed that for the bullshit it is above. (Besides a skin condition means that I AM covered up whenever I am outdoors and that doesn’t stop catcalling in the slightest so grow up you pathetic excuse for a human being.)

“As a mental health worker, I would suggest that you seek therapy for your triggers and previous abuse, rather than expect the entire world to stop doing the thing that triggers you.”

Thank you for posting a copy of your license online. I will be contacting your employers with a screenshot of this conversation so they know exactly how dangerous you are for women with your misogyny and, frankly, how unprofessional you are to be recommending treatment to someone you know only through an online conversation. What’s more — HELL YES I EXPECT OTHER HUMANS TO TREAT ME WITH COMPASSION AND RESPECT. What the hell is wrong with you that you find this so difficult. WHY do you hate women so much you nasty, vile, piece of scum?

And now, I’m done with you — but I’m sure your employers will be thrilled to learn what a piece of shit they have working for them. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to expose an abuser like you. You have no business working with vulnerable people at all.

Athena Brown

Athena Brown >> YOU are the one who claimed catcalling is “normal sexual behavior”.

^^^ Right, when catcalling involves things like “hello” and “god bless you”, then I’d call that pretty normal.

When every possible expression a man can make in the opposite sex is called “catcalling” – I’d call that pretty normal sexual behavior.

>> I am merely the one pointing out that it isn’t consensual and that makes it wrong.

^^^ If a man’s sexual expression needs consent, why doesn’t yours?

>> My body coverings are not equivalent in any way to someone catcalling another person.

^^^ Why not?

>> You can look away from something you find visually offensive. You cannot unhear a catcall.

^^^ Well if men have to cover their eyes to not be offended by you, you can plug your ears to not be offended by them.

>> Thank you for posting a copy of your license online.

^^^ Uh, sweety… that’s my government issued ID. Not my license.

It’s the ID that shows Athena is my real name, and that I’m really a woman.

>> I will be contacting your employers with a screenshot of this conversation so they know exactly how dangerous you are for women with your misogyny and, frankly, how unprofessional you are to be recommending treatment to someone you know only through an online conversation.

^^^ And I’ll be posting this to 4th Wavers. Because really, I’m posting my ID on what is a PUBLIC facebook thread, so clearly I stand by all of my statements and I’m not afraid about who sees them – including my employers. Nothing I’ve said here has been sexist or misogynist.

But thanks for pointing out that as a 3rd Waver – and as people like Thunderf00t have highlighted numerous times – you’ll actually try to get someone who disagrees with you fired from their job. I bet you wonder why people hate feminism.

>> What’s more — HELL YES I EXPECT OTHER HUMANS TO TREAT ME WITH COMPASSION AND RESPECT.

^^^ Well so far you’ve been full of only piss and vinegar, so I wouldn’t count on it.

>> And now, I’m done with you — but I’m sure your employers will be thrilled to learn what a piece of shit they have working for them.

^^^ Well, go ahead! And good luck on finding out where I work, since I didn’t post any employment related information, and you’re having trouble telling apart a government issued ID apart from a mental health license.

Plus you still haven’t proved to us that Rebecca is your real name, and you aren’t just a man in a dress!

 

Rebecca Loos
Rebecca Loos Your government ID is even better. Now I know you live in Oregon and work for the government. I’m sure they’re going to LOVE this conversation. It’s all copied and saved now. Thank you, Athena. I don’t care what they do with the information but it’s my duty as a decent human being to try and protect vulnerable women from someone in the mental health field who wants to normalize abuse and blame victims for what is done to them. Have a WONDERFUL day now.

===================================

And at that point, I really didn’t know how to respond.

She….. she thinks I work for the government.

I… you… just…. you do not understand how government issued personal identifications work.  Okay.

Also, you forgot to offer any proof that your name is Rebecca and you’re not a man – but hey I guess questioning someone’s name and gender identification is only valid when you’re the one doing it.

So anyway!  Go ahead and share this page on your social media, let everyone know 4th Wavers belongs to Athena Brown.  You even got a picture of my ID so you know it’s me!  4th Wavers has been public for a while now, and I generally use one of the links from this page anytime I get one of the same old tired arguments as always.  Hopefully we’ll get me fired from my top secret government job I’ve got here in Oregon, which you can evidently see from the ID I got down at the local DMV.

That everyone gets.

Because that’s how IDs work.

When They Just Can’t Win, Part 4: Some People Never Learn

She’s BAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaack!  Lilandra Ra, wife of the famous youtube atheist AronRa (both of whom have debated me before, and ended up resorting to massive censorship to protect their 3rd Waver Faith), decided to take another stab at defending the 3rd Wave faith, this time on someone else’s wall.

And after getting smacked with some basic logic, she decided once again that censorship was the only reasonable option.  See, I told you guys – save your threads each time you post!  This is what 3rd Wavers do anytime you present them with facts or evidence.

Enjoy!

—————————————————–

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/rabble-rouser/201512/when-is-feminist-not-feminist [[Original post, shared by my good friend Peter Boghossian ]]

Athena Brown

Athena Brown Disregard if you’ve seen it already

https://4thwavers.wordpress.com/2014/08/15/what-is-feminism/

It’s better if we define our terms right from the start. Yes, I know there are lots of different flavors of feminism……
Tia Price
Tia Price If you think men and women deserve to be equal you’re a feminist
Jonathan Sophrosyne
Jonathan Sophrosyne Feminism IS egalitarianism/humanism, just with a more immediate focus on women’s issues.
Like · Reply · 1 · 1 hr
Lilandra Ra

Lilandra Ra I can’t think of one person who chooses to define themselves as an egalitarian and rubbishes the word feminism that does anything to further women’s equality. Most people who engage in this semantic argument over what people should call themselves don’t do anything other than criticize feminism.

OTOH there are self identified feminists all over the world fighting for women’s equality There is no shame in being specific on what you are working on. Just as working on racial justice does not equal advocating for racial supremacy. Equality never equals supremacy.

Like · Reply · 2 · 1 hr · Edited
Hide 18 Replies
Lucas Urdiales Moreira
Lucas Urdiales Moreira So if semantics aren’t an issue. Why do feminists have an issue with just being egalitarians?
Like · Reply · 1 · 1 hr
Lilandra Ra
Lilandra Ra Lucas Urdiales Moreira Why do atheists have an issue with just being called agnostics? Specificity.
Athena Brown

Athena Brown Actually, both the original article, and the link I posted, make a pretty solid case against 3rd Wave Feminism. The OP favors egalitarianism, while I’ve made the case for 4th Wave feminism.

Both of these movements do plenty to further equality for women more so than 3rd Wave.

Lilandra Ra
Lilandra Ra Athena Brown Name one prominent egalitarian who rubbishes the word feminism that does anything to further women’s equality rather than just than just criticizing feminism.
Athena Brown

Athena Brown Christina Hoff Sommers and Catherine Hakim come to mind. There’s a number of youtubers I could also find if you wanted a few more examples.

Might I remind you Lilandra, that the last time we engaged in this sort of exchange, you an Aron had to ban me from your FB wall because you could not hold up in a debate on this subject.

In case you forgot, the exchange can be seen here: https://4thwavers.wordpress.com/2015/07/12/aronra-and-the-religion-of-third-wave-feminism-part-2/

Remember that?

You’re always welcomed to try again. Why don’t you start with actually addressing the things said in the original article, or in my article, and explain exactly why it’s wrong.

Jonathan M. Weiss
Jonathan M. Weiss Lilandra Ra: the difference between an “atheist” and an honest “agnostic” is the difference between 0 and .000000000000…[keep writing zeroes at super computer speed for 13 billion years]]….00001. Is that the difference between a “feminist” and an “egalitarian” that small, typically? The difference between an atheist and a bullshit agnostic (wearing a cheap suit) is much bigger.
Per Baasch Jørgensen
Per Baasch Jørgensen But if semantics aren’t an issue. Why DO feminists have an issue with just being egalitarians?
Lilandra Ra
Lilandra Ra Per Baasch Jørgensen Quote me where I said semantics are not an issue.
Lilandra Ra
Lilandra Ra Jonathan M. Weiss You are special pleading. Atheists call themselves atheists because they have no god beliefs. So agnostics who try to tell them what to call themselves are simply playing word games. Feminists call themselves feminists because they are advocating equal rights for women. They don’t need to be told what to call themselves as there is nothing wrong with focusing on women’s equality.
Like · Reply · 1 · 35 mins
Per Baasch Jørgensen

Per Baasch Jørgensen “Most people who engage in this semantic argument over what people should call themselves don’t do anything other than criticize feminism.”

So I was just wondering if you had any other reason than the rather unspecified “specificity”. I never see anybody give actual reasons, so I was hoping you could and would elaborate.

Per Baasch Jørgensen
Per Baasch Jørgensen Oh, you got there with Jonathan, fair enough.
Miles Ward
Miles Ward The atheist / agnostic definition is easy.
I am surprised it was conflated.
Atheist – No belief in gods
Agnostic – do not believe there is knowledge to be found on a subject.
You can be an agnostic atheist – the most common,
You can also be an agnostic christian,
simple.
But if you don’t believe in gods you are not ‘agnostic’ – you are atheist.
Again simple.
irrelevant as an analogy concerning feminism?
Lilandra Ra

Lilandra Ra Athena Brown You are projecting [[dear lord, do they ever get tired of using that word?  Go back and see the first debate and you’ll see what I mean]] you have shown a repeated unwillingness to even let other people help you unpack why you are wrong. You were blocked for repeatedly spamming Aron’s FB and insulting him.

I asked you for an example of an egalitarian who rubbishes the word feminist, who does anything any activism for women’s rights rather than simply criticizing feminism.

You uncritically cite Christina Hoff Sommers a paid anti-feminist shill for the American Enterprise Institute. AEI also has employed other conservative demagogues like Newt Gingrich. So her entire career has been built on supplying incurious people with spam.

This is an example of her so called egalitarianism:

“There are a lot of homely women in women’s studies,” Christina Hoff Sommers, a professor at Clark University in Massachusetts, is quoted as saying. “Preaching these anti-male, anti-sex sermons is a way for them to compensate for various heartaches — they’re just mad at the beautiful girls.” http://www.nytimes.com/1994/01/19/opinion/public-private-and-now-babe-feminism.html

There I did some of your homework. But you will not acknowledge that you made my point for me and will simply keep spamming the same corrupted memes, and call it debate just like a creationist.

Athena Brown
Athena Brown [[And here’s where the exchange really takes off, if you’re wanting to skip right to it.]]
>> You were blocked for repeatedly spamming Aron’s FB and insulting him.^^^ Yea, no – you can actually read the entire exchange on the link I provided. There’s no need to make up reasons about what happened. It’s all right there, freely available.>> You uncritically cite Christina Hoff Sommers a paid anti-feminist shill for the American Enterprise Institute.

^^^ Well of course. I’m sure no matter who I cited, rather than explain why they’re wrong, you could just call them names.

>> AEI also has employed other conservative demagogues like Newt Gingrich

^^^ It wouldn’t matter if Hitler, Poll Pot, and Satan himself were on their payroll. That wouldn’t make what they say wrong – a point your husband very routinely makes when arguing with creationist.

>> But you will not acknowledge that you made my point for me and will simply keep spamming the same corrupted memes

^^^ ……….. I’ve spammed memes?

(‘-‘ ) ( ‘-‘)

Where??

Anyway, I’ve noticed that you missed Catherine Hikam. Guess you don’t have any readily available name calling for her.

I also mentioned youtubers. Here you go:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GGwfGSHJCY

Here’s another

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNErQFmOwq0

And then of course there’s this guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbpCKC5dCPo

So, do you have name calling ready for all of them?

Miles Ward
Miles Ward Unfortunately modern feminism has become toxic and biased as an ideology.
Humanism / egalitarianism has not.
There are extreme ‘feminzi’ identity politics fascists who are very vocal and spread hate. IE; kill all men, I bathe in male tears, etc, banning white men from college meetings, whining about cultural appropriation bullshit.
There are no equivalent toxic cults of ‘humanism’ polluting what humanism stands for.
That is the difference.
Most people will NOT identify as feminist – FACT.
Only 18% of Americans, 8% of British.
But when asked if they believe in equality of opportunity for all – they all agree.
So – There is definitely a bad smell and something rotten with modern feminism – or there would be no difference in popularity.
I have seen the examples of hatred and fascist identity politics, first world moaning about ‘manspreading’. ‘shirtgate’, fake wage gap, fake fearmongering about rape epidemics and all the other bullshit minutiae not worth bothering with – Whilst most modern feminist activists say nothing about muslims raping & assaulting German women on mass?
Funny that.
But true.
Lilandra Ra
Lilandra Ra Athena Brown I noticed that you didn’t acknowledge that you proved my point by citing Sommers uncritically. You won’t because you put promoting a corrupted meme like a broken record over the truth. You do your own work and research the people you uncritically cite. I am done wasting time with you. You are just like a creationist demanding a transitional fossil and when shown one demands another one without acknowledging they are wrong.
Athena Brown

Athena Brown >> I noticed that you didn’t acknowledge that you proved my point by citing Sommers uncritically.

^^^ Yea, because you didn’t prove your point. Christina is an accomplished speaker who has written books, given dozens of lectures, and routinely makes videos on the topic of feminism.

You called her names and cited one quote from her. This does not prove anything.

>> You won’t because you put promoting a corrupted meme

^^^ Meme.

You keep using that word. I don’t think it means what you think it means.jpg

>> You do your own work and research the people you uncritically cite.

^^^ Actually sweety, I published a peer reviewed book on the Feminist Theory, and founded the official 4th Wavers website. I think this now officially counts as “woman’splaining”.

>> You are just like a creationist demanding a transitional fossil

^^^ Excuse me, but I haven’t demanded anything during this entire exchange.

You asked me for examples of egalitarians who denounce 3rd Wave Feminism who have benefited other women. So far I’ve given you 5 such examples – you took one of them, called her names, and now you’re hightailing it out of here. Don’t blame ya though.

Have fun in your safe space echo chamber.

Like · Reply · 1 · 5 mins
Athena Brown
Athena Brown Folks reading this can probably pick up on why she had me banned from Aron’s wall.
Like · Reply · 1 · 3 mins
Athena Brown
Write a reply…

=======================================================

Came back a few hours later and *poof*!  She disappeared.

Gotta stop doing this, Ra.  You’re welcome to engage me anytime, day or night, on facebook or on 4th wavers – or anywhere else for that matter.  Just know that I’m bringing facts and evidence to the table, the same way you do with creationists, so you might want to take your own advice and do some research first.

When They Just Can’t Win, Part 3: Patriarchy Debate

This site is still on hiatus for the time being, but I just finished a rather one-sided win against someone who claimed to be a “Gender Studies Professor”, who opened the debate with the promise to school me something awful on how patriarchy really does exist in the US.

During the entire debate, she was never able once to offer up even one iota of evidence regarding her claim, and it pretty much went downhill for her from the very start.

As I always do when I debate 3rd Wavers, I save the threads, in case the other party feels there’s no other choice but to resort to censorship (which is extremely common with this group).  Below is the debate.

Enjoy!

[Update: did you know that when someone blocks you, and you’ve had a debate on a thread they started, that the entire thread disappears and it looks like they deleted it?  … neither did I.  Oh well!  😛 ]

===============================================

.
Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm
Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm Athena, as a professor of gender and sexuality, and a quick scan of your page I gather you are transgender, which comes with a different set of issues. However, by denying patriarchy and entering the ranks of womanhood you will eventually feel the sting of a patriarchal society. If you want to be embraced by the women who should support you, you need to understand the issues we face. (It is the fact that many trans women do not understand the struggle of cicsgendered women that is dividing many feminist women’s organizations. Now you can spout a bunch of long winded examples why you think patriarchy doesn’t exist, but it does. You grew up male so you weren’t as impacted by that particular dynamic. (Not that you didn’t have your own dynamics to deal with.) However you are still viewing it with a male gaze. See how the Trans community looks down on Caitlyn Jenner for her views on life and sexuality and pretty much every political issue….honey- don’t be a Caitlyn.
Hide 36 Replies
Sare Kumagai
Sare Kumagai Finally, someone said the right things to Anthea.
Neža Vižintin
Neža Vižintin Now she will ask for examples so she can try and dissmantle them.
Athena Brown

Athena Brown >> However, by denying patriarchy and entering the ranks of womanhood you will eventually feel the sting of a patriarchal society.

^^^ Okay! Since you’re a professor, I’m sure you will have *NO PROBLEM* answering all the stuff I posted above! So lets hear it. How do you explain any of that if patriarchy were real?

And further, since you’re a professor of gender studies, I’m positive you must know how facts, evidence, and proof works in the scientific field. So please, do provide evidence for your claims. If patriarchy is real

1) How do you explain all the observations from above, and

2) Where is your evidence that it exists?

I love that we got a real live professor in here, so for sure we can expect to see something besides name calling this time, right?

>> If you want to be embraced by the women who should support you, you need to understand the issues we face.

^^^ Well first, I do understand the issues. And second, I am embraced and supported by plenty of close personal friends.

>> Now you can spout a bunch of long winded examples why you think patriarchy doesn’t exist, but it does.

^^^ A claim presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. You’re the one making the positive assertion, so the burden of proof lies in your court.

I look forward to your response.

>> You grew up male so you weren’t as impacted by that particular dynamic.

^^^ You don’t know anything about me. So how in the world do you know what dynamics I was impacted by?

Further, what happened in the past is the past. I was male then, but I’m female now. So explain how this dynamic is different for me *now*, since I’m a woman now, and that’s what’s relevant.

>> However you are still viewing it with a male gaze.

^^^ That’s not what male gaze means.

https://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/…/faq-what-is…/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_gaze

…. you’re a professor, so surely you simply mis-spoke.

Waiting to see evidence for your claims!

Before talking about the male gaze, it is first important to introduce its parent concept: the…
Robert Krupka
Robert Krupka Many transgendered individuals are really tired of Feminism attempting to speak for them and don’t feel that Patriarchy theory does an adequate job of explaining their experience, and given their perspective from both sides, it’s quite valuable, even if it doesn’t support Feminism. Blair White and Theryn Meyer on Youtube are good examples.
Athena Brown

Athena Brown >> Now she will ask for examples so she can try and dissmantle them.

^^^ This bud’s for you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic_burden_of_proof

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_burden_of_proof

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/burden_of_proof

In epistemology, the burden of proof (Latin: onus probandi) is the obligation on a party in a dispute to provide sufficient warrant for their position.
Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm
Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm Athena, sign up for my classes I will share my wisdom. No, I do not have the inclination to educate the uneducated for free. I get paid a lot of money to answer those questions. I dont work for free. I know my worth, and the realities of patriarchal society.
But if you want a reading list I can provide that. Would you prefer a world history list or just US?
I will give you the first patriarchy lesson in my Early World History class. Beginning with sedentary farming and early civilizations, when women lost control of the food supply (they were the gatherers men were the hunters) they became valued for only their reproductive capabilities. This is the beginnings of patriarchy. Over and over we see in history how we, as a civilization, become farther from the hunter gatherer roots, we see women lose power/authority. This is what archeology, and the written record has told us, examples being the Hebrews, Egyptians, Mesopotamians, Indus River Valley People, Greeks, Arabic Nomads, Some Native American tribes, there are more but I have a migraine.
A good place to start, would be Gerda Lerner.Oh and for future reference, when dealing with any academic, never use Wikipedia or any other open source- like wordpress- it is dismissed immediately. Cornell was a good cite- but really- wikipedia? My students quickly get the idea as the footer of my syllabus clearly and boldly states: Wikipedia is never a source! So, didn’t even go there.To directly clarify a couple of things, when speaking about the women who SHOULD support you I was not addressing your personal friends. I am sure you have a great support system and wonderful caring friends. I was instead speaking to the larger group of women as a whole. We historically tend to group up and divide. Especially within the modern feminist movements. NOW and other feminist organisations should be embracing (and possibly educating both ways) trans women. Instead we are looking at them rather suspect. (The enemy crossing over comes to mind although men have never been my enemy- ok honestly just the one I am married to for 20 years and that’s only sometimes. smile emoticon What I am saying though is that we cisgendered women need to support trans women’s needs and rights, not minimize, trivialize, or ignore. But in order to do that, we must fight for true gender equality. (Eliminate the patriarchial structure you seem to disbelieve.) To see examples of inequality Look at the AAUW study on girls and STEM I can’t remember the years, again pleading the migraine and the meds are kicking in. Look at the documentary Misrepresentation. (Ok the first few minutes on eating disorders are not my baliwick, but it gets very interesting when it looks at media and politics.) Or look at any of the Killing us Softly videos (I think that is what it is called- on YouTube, 4 is the most recent I believe. Those are just a few off the top of my very pained head.You say what happened in the past is the past, but I argue regularly in my classes that the past shapes the present. You were male then, you are female now. You were likely socialized male. (I am making assumptions, I know I socialized my daughters a bit differently too and neither are what you would call traditional.)So maybe you had exceptional parents who held no preconcieved gender constructs when raising you, and I am wrong. Hell maybe you were that kid raised by wolves I don’t know you are right. But I can make an educated guess that you were socialized male and that did impact you this hetero normative culture that we have in the US. That means you changed more than just your style of shoes when you transitioned, you also had to go through (or are going through ) a change in how you perceive the world. While I personally see this as a strength, and the Native Americans of the past saw being trans as blessed state btw, I also believe that this strength came from a place of great inner turmoil since you likely grew up in a gender binary. Your past created the strong opinionated woman you are today. (Thats according to Locke if you want to know my source.) If you want to argue early modern philosophy and childrearing theories we can Do that tomorrow night the pills are really kicking in. Goodnight Athena. I think you actually can youtube some wierd lady reading Lerner Invention of Patriarchy….Debating on torturing my online students with it next semester. smile emoticon

Daniel Richard Dempster
Daniel Richard Dempster I believe Gwendollyn just got shrecked and is backing off “I do not have the inclination to educate the uneducated for free” translates roughly to “oh shit…. i got to get out of this before i get shrecked even worse”
Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm
Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm Actually, I believe that was “I really don’t have time for a lot of bullshit.” I gentle my tone because I don’t think some feminists are giving the Trans community a fair shake. Then, I gave her the beginnings of the proof she wanted as there is an overwhelming amount of reading/theories. I suggested the seminal piece for her to read, and started with the creation of patriarchy in the earliest societies. I am sorry, it was already a long post and I had a migraine. I also know my value. I get paid a lot of money to teach this, and I garner a lot of respect. Why should I throw it out for a bunch of trolls? I do NOT see Athena as a troll, but Daniel you are simply trying to start an argument when we are having intellectual discourse.
Athena Brown

Athena Brown >> Actually, I believe that was “I really don’t have time for a lot of bullshit.”

^^^ Oh you got time to type nearly 2 screen-widths worth of post, but you don’t have time to debate? Right – just in case this person happens to provide a rebuttal that you simply cannot respond to.

I think you rather strongly suspect that this is the direction it will probably go, so you’ve taken care to provide yourself an easy out. But hey, maybe I’m wrong. Lets test this hypothesis and see.

>> I get paid a lot of money to teach this, and I garner a lot of respect.

^^^ Say, before I get started on the real meat and potatoes here, what university do you teach at? What department?

I’m curious because of what I’m about to cover.

>> Athena, sign up for my classes I will share my wisdom.

^^^ Meanwhile, I can respond to anything you have to say right here on a public forum, completely free of charge.

>> Beginning with sedentary farming and early civilizations, when women lost control of the food supply (they were the gatherers men were the hunters) they became valued for only their reproductive capabilities. This is the beginnings of patriarchy.

^^^ This runs absolutely counter to just about everything we’ve seen in archaeology. It also kind of makes me wonder how in the hell are you a professor on this subject if you got basic history *this* wrong.

https://4thwavers.wordpress.com/…/patriarchy-theory…/ — because I’m sure Cleopatra, Queen of the Nile, lived in a “patriarchy”.

Most early human societies were Matriarchies. I’m not going to re-explain what I already said in the link though.

>> Over and over we see in history how we, as a civilization, become farther from the hunter gatherer roots, we see women lose power/authority.

^^^ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary,_Queen_of_Scots

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indira_Gandhi

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catherine_the_Great

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empress_Dowager_Cixi

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_II

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Thatcher

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eva_Per%C3%B3n

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begum_Hazrat_Mahal

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosa_Luxemburg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatshepsut

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boudica

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabella_I_of_Castile

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irene_of_Athens

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_B%C3%A1thory

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jadwiga_of_Poland

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jindeok_of_Silla

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirjana_Markovi%C4%87

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_B%C3%A1thory

Anyone still thinking of signing up for her class? Of course you could probably find that PRATT (practically refuted a thousand times) “women have been oppressed for thousands of years” narrative online without paying anything.

It’s gotta suck though when someone can use sources that are 100% free to answer every point you’ve brought up 10 times over.

>> This is what archeology, and the written record has told us, examples being the Hebrews, Egyptians, Mesopotamians, Indus River Valley People, Greeks, Arabic Nomads, Some Native American tribes, there are more but I have a migraine.

^^^ Patriarchy didn’t start in Hebrew civilization until around 400 BC, when men attempted to overthrow the Matriarchal society and establish a patralineal system of inheritance.

Egypt was ruled by women, even before and after Cleopatra.

Mesopotamians actually have a long history of Matriarchy, including stories from Elam – which were mentioned on the link I provided.

Minoan Society (Greece) actually had a very long and well established egalitarian society run and ruled by women, which some 2nd Wave Feminist tried to present as evidence that society would be a lot better if women were in charge.

……………… really, what university do you teach at? Not kidding I really want to know.

>> when speaking about the women who SHOULD support you . . . I was instead speaking to the larger group of women as a whole

^^^ I whole heartedly agree. Women are being robbed of their chance to cultivate a sense of community, and build emotionally healthy and fulfilling lives. After all…

Third Wave isn’t about hating men, they just want you to believe men earn more and get more because penis – even when more than 50 peer reviewed studies now prove that there is no connection between sexism and the wage gap. They want you to believe men control everything, and that gender norms aren’t the result of thousands of years of societal evolution, but were purposely designed that way, by men, just to make you miserable.

Third Wave isn’t about hating men, they just want you to believe that anytime a man takes notice in a woman, it’s because they see her as an object, not as a person. They want you to believe that men shouldn’t have the right to comment, or express their opinions in public, without a woman’s permission. And yet men are privileged.

Third Wave isn’t about hating men, they just want you to believe that men are okay with raping women, that nearly every woman experiences rape or attempted rape, because men are always on the verge of wanting to hurt women because that’s what men do, they’ve done it for “thousands of years”, and they’re just barely able to hold themselves back if not for the saintly grace of female victimhood.

And the ultimate result of accepting this incredibly toxic view is the complete inability to find any sense of community. You can’t build relationships with other people in the place where you live, because if a man talks to you on a bus, it’s only because he’s thinking about you in some sexually perverse way. If a man looks at you in the park, he must be staring at you with some sinister intention. If a man pulls out a chair for you, he’s insulting you and thinks you’re a child. It can’t be that white heterosexual cis-men are just being nice, because even if they are just being nice, it means they’re being a “nice-guy” and expecting sex. That’s what all men want, and it’s the only reason they’re nice, because they think about it every 7 seconds. They can’t just be normal people like everyone else.

This is how feminism was hijacked.

The goal of 4th Wavers is to take it back, and re-focus it on legitimate women’s issues – like maternity leave, birth control, or the thousands of rape kits sitting in evidence rooms (the result of a massive administrative and modernization failure, as detailed in a 2011 report from the Justice Department – sorry, no patriarchy here either).

So I absolutely agree, we should stop with the victimizing narrative, and *EMPOWER* women!

>> Look at the AAUW study on girls

^^^ I did actually. A while ago. See, the problem is that I don’t *only* read from sources that say what I already agree with. I do the work of seeking out the opposing research and criticisms, then additional work to trace down the actual facts and what actually happened, THEN reach a conclusion that goes from facts, builds to evidence, then provides proof.

And guess what. I’m not the only one who does that! Here’s another professor who took the time to answer the AAUW study.

http://www.menweb.org/kleinfed.htm

Here’s an even more thorough, point-by-point break down, if you like:

http://www.theatlantic.com/…/the-war-against-boys/304659/

Here’s a somewhat related tid-bit from another university professor. http://ideas.time.com/…/school-has-become-too-hostile…/

>> Or look at any of the Killing us Softly videos

^^^ These videos are centered around objectification. Our discussion here is about patriarchy.

But if you want – objectification runs counter to virtually everything we know in psychology (I’m also a certified mental health worker) https://4thwavers.wordpress.com/…/sexual…/ .

Athena Brown

Athena Brown >> You say what happened in the past is the past, but I argue regularly in my classes that the past shapes the present.

^^^ Okay lets return this one to the original point. You’ve given me a rather long paragraph that’s masking over that point, seemingly in an attempt to minimize it, which was:

—– —–
It is the fact that many trans women do not understand the struggle of cicsgendered women that is dividing many feminist women’s organizations
—– —–

^ This is an attempt to undermine my credibility on the issue. It also feels like a thinly veiled attack. “You’re not *really* a woman and wouldn’t understand what women have to go through”.

I asked you for some examples of “the struggle of cisgender women” that I wouldn’t understand.

Sure, the past shapes the future. Now what is it about being a woman that I, being trans, don’t get? Unless you were somehow referring to menstrual cramps.

Daniel Richard Dempster
Daniel Richard Dempster Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm translation “i got shrecked on”
Athena Brown

Athena Brown Now before I leave for the night (don’t worry I’ll be back tomorrow night) – I have to hold you to the questions I posed earlier. Now you’ve made it rather clear that you are a Gender Studies **Professor** – and with that in mind, I did say that you shouldn’t have any trouble with the following.

Here it is again.

1) How do you explain all the observations from above, and

2) Where is your evidence that it [patriarchy] exists?

In your next response, please include answers to these two. Now you’re a professor! You’ve made that abundantly clear, so I’m positive answering those two shouldn’t be hard.

Ian Lin

Ian Lin Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm : as a male I feel the sting of a matriarchal society: one that values women over men, one that gives privilege and assumption of need over men, one that decides men aren’t worthy to be fathers, one that decides any kind of financial or physical protection belongs only to women and men don’t matter.

I know across the planet there are indeed patriarchal societies but they’re not in North America or half of Europe.

Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm
Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm Equality is better in some parts of western Europe, but I have never heard we are a matriarchal society here. If you are referring to protective laws that give alimony and preferential custody…. well that is the pendulum swinging a bit too far, and will even itself out. Part of that is the backlash to patriarchy. See women are supposed to be more nurturing….this makes them better parents. So children should naturally go with mothers. It is the perpetuation of this patriarchial bs of women’s primary role being wives and mothers that allows for this crap. We know fathers can be just as nurturing and loving, caring and often better parents. But because of the patriarchial society we live in determines that women are better caretakers you lose your kids. It is a patriarchial stereotype that assumes (Generally rightly) your earning potential as a male is more than hers. It is protective legislation that grants her alimony under this assumption.
Athena Brown

Athena Brown Replied yesterday. Huh… for some reason I didn’t get the notice.

Anyway….

>> but I have never heard we are a matriarchal society here.

^^^ Now that ain’t what I said. Sure, we’re not a matriarchy here today – but that’s not what I was referring to when I said so. The US today is an equal society. Men and women are equal – there is no patriarchy.

>> If you are referring to protective laws that give alimony and preferential custody

^^^ Actually no, I never mentioned alimony or anything like that.

>> Part of that is the backlash to patriarchy.

^^^ You still got that burden of proof. What patriarchy?

>> See women are supposed to be more nurturing….this makes them better parents. So children should naturally go with mothers. It is the perpetuation of this patriarchial bs

^^^ Okay, so by patriarchal, you mean there’s a group of men somewhere deciding this? It’s a group of rich white men? They pick and choose how society will view women? Where do they meet? Who is this group comprised of?

If patriarchy were a top-down system designed and run by men, for men, where men are more valued, why would it constantly find ways to hurt men and benefit women at the expense of men?

If patriarchy were a bottom-up system organically emergent and designed by no one, which places greater value on men or on women depending on the situation and circumstance, and was constructed by the situations our species evolved through, it would make perfect sense. But then… why call it “patriarchy”?

>> It is a patriarchial stereotype that assumes (Generally rightly) your earning potential as a male is more than hers.

^^^ Now come on, you went on and on and made a big show about being a professor and all that. I expected better than this. (Though you certainly aren’t the first person to come on here proclaiming to be an expert with some credentials and had it end up this way.)

You’re going on about patriarchy without having provided any evidence, without having responded to any of the things I’ve said, and you’ve completely ignored my previous 2 questions.

Here they are again:

1) How do you explain all the observations from above,

and

2) Where is your evidence that it [patriarchy] exists?

Also, what exactly do you mean “earning potential as a male is more”? Are you seriously going to bring up the wage gap? Because here’s a whole bunch of reasons why you shouldn’t.

https://4thwavers.wordpress.com/…/the-wage-gap-myth…/

https://4thwavers.wordpress.com/…/what-if-the-wage-gap…/

Now remember that back door you created earlier just in case you found yourself in a ringer? You might wanna use that now. Say “I’m too busy” or “I got classes to teach” – or something like that if you want to bow out. I gave you a fair chance to reply.

You still haven’t told us what university you supposedly teach at, but alright, I’ll let you off the hook on that one.

If it turns out you really just can’t come up with a better response, first, I’d strongly urge you to rethink your position on this matter. 3rd Wave is an absolutely toxic faith-based movement that casts women as victims in every possible situation and robs them of their ability to build self esteem, or find a sense of community. If you really want to empower women, consider 4th Wave.

Second, yea… go ahead and bow out if you just have to. You could also choose not to reply and I won’t either, so that’s another way out if you want to take it.

(Update: thanks to some persuasive criticism from Free Thinking Atheist Females, which…
Athena Brown

Athena Brown Also I see just now Ian’s post.

So scratch what I said earlier about Matriarchy if you were replying to him. Still, most early human civilizations were indeed matriarchal.

Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm
Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm Athena,
4th wave is still forming and very intriguing, but I never claimed to be a 3rd wave feminist. I personally fall somewhere in between. Agreeing with the assertion that 2nd wave marginalized women who were not white, or of the “right” socioeconomic class. Third wave opened feminist theory up to queer theory, some of which I really think makes sense. Judith Butler comes to mind. But I also love the writings of bell hooks, Audre Lorde, and many others. If you think all of this wave does anything the same though, I think you are missing the point. The point of third wave is intersectionality. Whatever your women’s issue- it should be encompassed in 3rd wave. Women of different race/class/ability all have different experiences therefore it cannot be a unified movement. Now, can some of the third wave feminists ride that wave to victimhood- absolutely- (I see a lot of the millenials feminist or not riding that victim ride and think it is more a product of over coddling myself.) But again, that is only a portion of 3rd wavers. Just like every second wave feminist isn’t out burning her bra. (They didn’t really do that except for the press- so I am told.)
Now about your question-
I truly do no have time to dig through all the posts to find your earliest questions- mind reposting one or two and I will respond. My semester starts soon and I admit I have been lazy and have to grade finals. I actually assign essays as a final- because I am slightly masochistic. I have 250 5-7 page essays to read. Plus I help my husband with his business. So- I fb at night mostly when I am exhausted.To be quite honest I believe (as I regularly tell my students) there are as many types of feminism as there are flavors of ice cream. You have to find your flavor. I watched the third wave really get going in the 90s….now it seems there is a whole new pedagogy. Who are the theorists of 4th wave? Academia is slow (even asked my daughter at SFSU if she had heard much about it- and it really hasn’t been presented into academia much yet. Even asked colleagues at other CA colleges- not hearing much about it yet. It will come though.
Athena Brown

Athena Brown I’m wondering why I’m not getting notifications. I saw this only because I just happened to come back to this thread. Hm.

Anyway….

>> If you think all of this wave does anything the same though, I think you are missing the point. The point of third wave is intersectionality.

^^^ I’m going to disagree. That’s not what the facts show.

https://4thwavers.wordpress.com/2014/08/15/what-is-feminism/

>> Who are the theorists of 4th wave?

^^^ I created the 4th Wave. The purpose is basically to rescue feminism from the 3rd Wave hijackers who have turned it into a faith-based man-hating movement. Here’s a better explanation: https://4thwavers.wordpress.com/…/is-feminism-a-religion/

>> I truly do no have time to dig through all the posts to find your earliest questions- mind reposting one or two and I will respond.

Sure. Here’s a recap.

========================================

Patriarchy does not exist in the US, as there is no evidence for this, and tons of evidence **against** this. The evidence against patriarchy is as follows:

— Why is it totally okay to beat a man in public, but men can’t even LOOK at a woman without it being labeled and denounced? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRCS6GGhIRc
.
— Why would we have laws allowing women to file charges of sexual harassment because of a swimsuit calendar in your cubicle? http://ehsdailyadvisor.blr.com/…/can-you-recognize…/
.
— Why would we lower the physical requirements of women joining police departments (http://www.pstc.nh.gov/faqs.htm), the military (https://en.wikipedia.org/…/United_States_Army_Physical…), and remove tests for fire departments altogether (http://nypost.com/…/fdny-drops-physical-test…/), even when it’s been repeatedly demonstrated that women who actually bothered training would have no such need? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3fD-L-Gdjg
.
— Why would I, as a woman, be allowed to board the bus ahead of someone who was clearly standing in line before me? Why is it when I drop something, three different men reach to pick it up? Why am I always allowed to use the restroom when the sign clearly says “no public restroom”? Why do I not have to pay for my own meals on dates? Why can I use the men’s room if there’s someone in the lady’s room, yet if a man tried that, he’d probably be arrested? http://www.katu.com/…/Portland-business-owner-in
.
— Why are convicted killers of women more likely to get the death penalty? In a patriarchy. Where masculinity is more valued than femininity. http://www.presstelegram.com/article/20150627/NEWS/150628436
.
— Why are women almost never given the death penalty? In a patriarchy. Where femininity is not as valued as masculinity. http://www.businessinsider.com/women-and-the-death
.
— Why do we punish men just for the accusation of rape, but there’s virtually no recourse at all towards women who falsely accuse men of rape? If we valued men and not women, shouldn’t this be… reversed somehow?
.
— Why would the suicide rate for men be 3 times higher than for women? In a society where they’re more valued? https://www.afsp.org/understanding-suicide/facts-and-figures
.
— Why are you able to stand up in public, anywhere in the modern day US, and shout “WOMEN ARE SMARTER THAN MEN!” – and get applause, yet if you did that same exact thing and shouted men were smarter than women, you’d get beaten up? No need for hyperlinks here – just go out and try it yourself.
.
— Why is it I can walk into a club wearing lipstick and eyeliner and have men fawn over me, yet for a man to have women fawn over him, he’d have to be a billionaire? What does money matter when men are more valued than women?
.
— Why would the Justice Department have an entire branch set up just for violence against women, even though domestic violence has been shown repeatedly to happen at equal rates to both men and women? http://www.justice.gov/ovw
.
— Why would this happen? https://nationalparentsorganization.org/…/3977
.
— Why would we have Rape Shield laws? http://www.legalmatch.com/…/article/rape-shield-laws.html. How did those get passed in a patriarchy?
.
— If a building is on fire, how many people would rush in, risking their lives, to save Bob, the big fat bald-headed accountant? How many would rush in to save Tammy, the bikini model? Almost everyone goes for the model – but why, when Bob is more valuable because penis *cough* I MEAN “patriarchy”?
.
— If a woman is inside her house naked, and a man walks by and looks in the window, he’s a peeping tom, and gets arrested. Yet if it’s a man inside the house naked and a woman walks by, it’s still the man who gets arrested. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JRdFf8qtSc
.
— Why is almost 3 times as much spent on breast cancer than on prostate cancer? http://dailycaller.com/…/breast-cancer-receives-much…/
.
— Why are we all okay with men being called nearly ever name under the sun (http://verbalabuseofmen.com/ ), but we need to “ban bossy”? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ban_Bossy
.
— I have a pass that allows me to eat dinner at some of the shelters around town. Every evening when dinner is served, the women get to go first. Why? When we’re not as valued?
.
— Why does 97% of alimony cases go to women? http://www.forbes.com/…/20/why-do-so-few-men-get-alimony/ – shouldn’t it go to men? Who are in power? Who are in charge? Who can just FORCE THE WOMAN to hand over her money and belongings to the man after a divorce? (You know, like they do in the middle east?)
.
If you want to see what patriarchy looks like, just imagine a world where we flip all of these around. Imagine living in a country where is the exact opposite of everything we have in the US now. That might arguably be a “patriarchy”.
.
Is there any such place on earth that exists right now? Are there places where women are treated like trash just for being women? Why, yes, there is, as a matter of fact, glad you asked!!
.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq
.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan
.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somalia
.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yemen
.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria
.
And that’s probably the best indicator that we DON’T have that in the US. And that’s the answer to the original question put forward; yes, patriarchy is real, but not in any developed first world nation. WE DO NOT HAVE PATRIARCHY IN THE US!
.
Now explain to me how and why all of these things are able to happen “in a patriarchy”, and you’ll be half way home.
.
The other half would be providing evidence that patriarchy exists in the US.

It’s better if we define our terms right from the start. Yes, I know there are lots of different…
Athena Brown

Athena Brown Now as for the primary questions, summed up, they are (once again):

1) How do you explain all the observations from above,

and

2) Where is your evidence that it [patriarchy] exists?

Please note that all of your previous references have been answered already (like the AAUW study and all that), so you’ll need to come up with something else. Again, explain the observations listed and how they could exist if patriarchy were true, and then explain evidence for patriarchy.

Another option here is to simply reconsider your position. It’s okay to re-examine things when a counter-argument containing new facts and information has been presented, and reach a different conclusion.

Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm

Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm Men can be beaten in public/women can’t queation. Good. It is protective legislature that presupposes that women are more likely to be the victims not the perpetrators of violence. This is a that women are weaker and couldn’t hurt a man perpetuates the bad gender roles that play into patriarchial male superiority. As in it is somehow worse to take a punch from a girl and say ouch than it is from a guy. If the girl can hurt you you are less masculine. This perpetuates a bad gender based patriarchial stereotype that makes women the “weaker sex”.

File charges of sexual harassment for a stupid reason. Well you can actually file a lawsuit for a lot of things and win. Doesn’t prove or disprove anything. That one lady won a lawsuit for coffee being too hot at McDonald’s – go figure.

Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm

Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm Why would you be allowed to board a bus first etc… well, maybe the men were being polite. There are remnants of chivalry out there which is patriarchial if you know and understand the history, but I open doors for men as often as men open doors for me. If someone allows you to use a restroom, they are being nice. That isn’t patriarchial/non patriarchial. It is just kindness and common courtesy.

Patriarchy sees women as less yes, but they also value reproductive capabilities. So killers of women are not just killing the woman, they are also killing any chance at probable offspring. Would be my guess. Again this would be seen as protective legislature. Another argument: You can’t kill the woman because she would be less able to protect herself. Therefore harsher penalties.

Patriarchy isn’t good for men or women in most cases.

Again because of this patriarchial ideology of women as more pious,pure,domestic,and submissive women will get the death penalty less because they believe that truly women will need to be truly provoked in order to kill. This is protective patriarchy still not recognizing women as being equal to men (even in violence and depravity.)

Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm

Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm Justice Department, violence against women: again protective legislation that presupposes women to be more submissive and unable/unwilling to fight back. It is the same with rape. We know that there are different forms of rape, but up until the very recent past it was defined as penile/vaginal penitration. This would automatically exclude many many cases of rape, and many cases of men being raped. These are the same antiquated ideas that believe that a man can’t be raped by a woman, and if a man gets an erection he must have wanted it. It is stupidly absurd. Luckily things are changing. But again, unequal gender roles lead to inequality and bias.

Protective legislation often is put in place to protect women but in reality it just makes us less equal/culpable for ourselves.
The naked question….in CA both would be put on the sex offenders list…. but why is it that if she is raped/assualted/harassed her life is investigated from what she was wearing to who she sleeps with, etc. Men not at all.

Oh and why spend more $ on breast cancer than prostate- well I don’t have a prostate, 51% of the population doesnt, but men have breast tissue and are also getting breast cancer, often not getting checked until it is too late.

Names: because when you call a man a ball buster in a professional setting it doesn’t have the heavily laden connotations. Like it would to call a woman a bitch. Women are socialized in a patriarchial society not to compete with the boys, and those who do are called ugly names.

And regarding the alimony question, I think I answered it when I was addressing someone else.

Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm
Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm I believe that we live in a patriarchial society that is making strides towards equality. We aren’t there yet, but we are moving in that direction.
Athena Brown

Athena Brown >> This is a that women are weaker and couldn’t hurt a man perpetuates the bad gender roles that play into patriarchial male superiority.

^^^ So if women aren’t protected by law – see! Patriarchy!

If women *are* protected by law – because of Patriarchy!

No matter what situation, it will be interpreted in a way so that Patriarchy is still involved. As for women being protected by law, it could just as easily be due to women being MORE valued than men. There’s nothing inherent in added lawful protections that suggest it’s due to the reasons your narrative insists upon.

>> File charges of sexual harassment for a stupid reason. Well you can actually file a lawsuit for a lot of things and win. Doesn’t prove or disprove anything.

^^^ True, but what you see are companies all over America setting up sexual harassment policies, in accordance with laws, that are designed to protect mostly women. A woman can claim harassment, point the finger, and a man will lose his job. Men do not have anything like this working in their favor.

Why would a patriarchy allow this?

>> Why would you be allowed to board a bus first etc… well, maybe the men were being polite.

^^^ True, but the claim is that we live in a **patriarchy!** You would never see a woman getting on first in Iran, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, etc. Women would get on after the men, then they’d sit in the back of the bus. They’d also have to be escorted by men everywhere they go in public.

We have patriarchies in the world today and we can see exactly how they work. So how in the world does it happen that the results are the exact opposite here in America, where we’re supposed to have a patriarchy? Why would the man be polite, or put my considerations before his?

>> There are remnants of chivalry out there which is patriarchial if you know and understand the history

^^^ So a man is willing to don armour, pick up his sword, and fight to the DEATH for his lady….

To be clear, he is willing to throw down his life for her, whenever needed…

… because women aren’t valued? Because men are more important than women? If men are in control, why not just toss the bitch to the bears and let her get mauled? Why risk your life protecting her?

What definition of “patriarchy” are you using?

http://rlv.zcache.com/lady_queen_knighting_knight_antique… << if men were in charge during chivalry, how do you explain this picture????

>> If someone allows you to use a restroom, they are being nice. That isn’t patriarchial/non patriarchial. It is just kindness and common courtesy.

^^^ First you said letting me on the bus first is a remnant of chivalry, which you claim is patriarchal.

Then you claim that another kind act isn’t?

Why is being allowed to use a restroom that is customer’s only “just polite without the chivalry”, but letting me on the bus is “polite because of chivalry”?

rlv.zcache.com
Athena Brown

Athena Brown >> Patriarchy sees women as less yes, but they also value reproductive capabilities.

^^^ Okay sorry, I can’t reply to anymore such claims until you first prove that patriarchy EXISTS.

I’ve posted this maybe 4 times now, but here it is again. My questions to you are:

===========================
===========================
1) How do you explain all the observations from above,

and

2) Where is your evidence that it [patriarchy] exists?
===========================
===========================

I can’t entertain statements about something that doesn’t exist until you first provide evidence that it does exist.

>> Patriarchy isn’t good for men or women in most cases.

^^^ You’ve not yet offered any evidence that it exists.

>> Again because of this patriarchial ideology of women as more pious,pure,domestic,and submissive

^^^ You’ve not yet offered any evidence that it exists.

>> This is protective patriarchy still not recognizing women as being equal to men (even in violence and depravity.)

^^^ You’ve not yet offered any evidence that it exists.

Athena Brown

Athena Brown >> Justice Department, violence against women: again protective legislation that presupposes women to be more submissive and unable/unwilling to fight back.

^^^ No it doesn’t.

It could just as easily pass protection for women without ever having presupposed that.

>> It is the same with rape. We know that there are different forms of rape, but up until the very recent past it was defined as penile/vaginal penitration.

^^^ This has changed due to an improved understanding of what rape is, not due to some devious attempt for men to find ways they could still legally rape women.

Because during the same time that rape was defined this way, the penalty for a rape conviction was death.

How do you explain that? In a patriarchy?

>> Protective legislation often is put in place to protect women but in reality it just makes us less equal/culpable for ourselves.

^^^ Okay, so when men have laws that provide them with some advantage, in reality it just makes them less equal/culpable?

… no? Okay, then why is that the case with women?

(Of course we know the answer – because 3rd Wave Feminism insists that women are always the victims, like I said before. If a woman is disadvantaged, she’s a victim. If a woman is advantaged, she’s a victim. It has to be interpreted that way no matter what, because like religion, we have to convince you that there’s a problem – like you’re a sinner – before we can sell you the cure.)

>> The naked question….in CA both would be put on the sex offenders list…. but why is it that if she is raped/assualted/harassed her life is investigated from what she was wearing to who she sleeps with, etc.

^^^ She isn’t.

http://www.legalmatch.com/…/article/rape-shield-laws.html <— largely because of this.

Why would rape shield laws be passed to PREVENT all those things you just said … in a patriarchy?

>> Oh and why spend more $ on breast cancer than prostate- well I don’t have a prostate, 51% of the population doesnt, but men have breast tissue and are also getting breast cancer, often not getting checked until it is too late.

^^^ But we live IN A PATRIARCHY!!!! This is a system where men are supposed to be valued / get ahead / receive attention / be advantaged more so than women SIMPLY BECAUSE they are men!!!

In Saudi Arabia they’d just whimsically defund all female medical research and put it to male medical research because, well…. THEY’RE A PATRIARCHY! That’s precisely what that word means!

So why are we spending several times more on women’s health issues? The number of men who get breast cancer is very small. The number of men with prostate cancer is very high. Why would they not fund more on research for prostate research if they were valued MORE than women???

>> Names: because when you call a man a ball buster in a professional setting it doesn’t have the heavily laden connotations. Like it would to call a woman a bitch.

^^^ I like how for men, you picked out one of the most benign examples you could think of, and compared that to “bitch”, ignoring that “bitch” can have positive connotations as well.

This does not at all answer why it’s okay to all men every name under the sun, but as soon as you call a woman anything even slightly mean (like “bossy”), we have to all start banning that word.

Women are being given overwhelmingly more support and protection on every level than men. Why would this happen in a PATRIARCHY?

>> Women are socialized in a patriarchial society not to compete with the boys

^^^ Sorry no – you’ve not provided any evidence yet that patriarchy exists. I can’t entertain affirmative statements about something that hasn’t been shown to exist yet.

>> I believe that we live in a patriarchial society

^^^ That’s a statement of faith. You believe in something with no evidence – it’s the same as saying “I believe Jesus died for my sins”.

Rape shield laws expressly prohibit or limit the use of evidence of a victim’s past sexual history to undermine that victim’s credibility.. There’s no fee to post your case to local lawyers. Learn more about: Rape Shield Laws.
legalmatch.com|By Kourosh Akhbari
Athena Brown

Athena Brown The questions still stand.

1) How do you explain all the observations from above (why would they exist in a PATRIARCHY),

and

2) Where is your evidence that it [patriarchy] exists?

Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm

Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm If it is an employees only restroom, not a customers restroom- (clearly you here every right to use a customers restroom) that is the employee using their judgement to determine if you will get to use the restroom. Not a policy issue. They could say no tomorrow.

Chivalry- took hold in the 12th and 13th century when women were considered property. Valuable property, but property nonetheless. Women couldn’t own property, bring cases to court, testify in their own defense, choose their own marriage partner. I could go on. In some households women did exercise power, but that was because her husband allowed it. He gave her the keys when he went off, and she became chatelaine of the household. However he just as easily could have hired a steward to work in his place cutting her out of the issue. She is bought/sold with a bride price/dowery. This idea of female ownership will perpetuate until the 20th century when women spent close to 100 years agitating for the vote in the US. (Again, couldn’t own property, children were legally property of husband, she didn’t even own her own clothing. She couldn’t collect her own wages until late 19th c. Etc.)

To be clear, other than bodice rippers, and imagery- men weren’t actually throwing their lives down for the women. If a woman was raped per se, they may say….your honor blah blah…but it was actually because a property crime had been committed against them and they were collecting damages. She was now unmarriable because her reproductive organs were used, so IF she could marry, she would expect to marry much lower. Virginity was the prize. She (even though it was not her fault) no longer possessed it therefore she was worth less on the marriage market. (If she could marry at all.) This is why men would pick up his sword. By deflowering the daughter of the house, you just cost the father quite a bit of power/alliances etc. Oh and like as not if he was unmarried and acceptable he made her marry her rapist.

You compare our western society to Arab societies. But surely you realize that you cannot compare a first world society and a third? Of course many of their laws are not simple patriarchial but human rights violations. That is like comparing an apple to a tomato. They are both red and fruits but the similarities end there. Patriarchy in the US is different because it is a different culture. Patriarchy takes a different shape.

Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm
Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm I don’t see why you can not accept that patriarchial systems hurt both men and women. They perpetuate unequal laws, which aren’t good, and perpetuate gender roles that play into a strong gender binary. It perpetuates ideas that hurt men as much as women. Look to the Scandinavian countries to see where equality is going. Where fathers and fatherhood are valued as much as motherhood. Where there is much more equality between the sexes.
Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm
Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm And funny- when I do a quick research of 4th Wave Feminism your name never pops up? You invented 4th wave feminism? Huh? Yet when I Google your name I just get a bunch os social media sites. Sorry. At this point I believe you are not truly seeking answers to your questions. I have pointed out the common knowledge points of reference. You keep using non academic/referenced sources, some without authors so why should I take them as fact….because they are on the internet? I only used common knowledge information in my posts, (therefore unsourced) and directed you to the authors you should read. But I believe I have said more than enough, and I wish you well. You clearly have no grasp of history and the building of the world to this point, nor do you require rigor in your sources, so you believe anything if it seems true. I just can’t work with that. (I haven’t cited sources because everything I stated is common knowledge – something you would find in most survey collegiate history texts. Obviously subject specific.)
Athena Brown

Athena Brown >> If it is an employees only restroom, not a customers restroom- (clearly you here every right to use a customers restroom) that is the employee using their judgement to determine if you will get to use the restroom. Not a policy issue.

^^^ Okay now you’re just being deliberately thick.

https://awkwardlistdotcom.files.wordpress.com/…/restroo… <— See this sign? This sign is a *POLICY*. It says CUSTOMER’S ONLY.

It doesn’t say “Customers Only – unless we really like you and think you look cute”. It doesn’t say “Customer’s Only – if our cashier feels like it!”

It says CUSTOMER’S ONLY – because that’s what it means. It’s absolutely a policy.

I can take off my makeup and walk in as a man, ask to use the restroom – “Sorry, customer’s only”. I can put on my make up and walk back in dressed differently and using female voice, ask to use the restroom, and it’s “Oh of course, here’s the key!”

Now why would this, along with all the other benefits and advantages (read: privileges) happen with women in a patriarchy?

>> Chivalry- took hold in the 12th and 13th century when women were considered property. Valuable property, but property nonetheless.

^^^ This was stated in the law so that the man would have to pay taxes on them and provide for their welfare. If he didn’t do this, there were punishments placed upon him.

>> Women couldn’t own property,

^^^ Yes, they could.

http://pennpress.typepad.com/…/medieval-monday-five…

https://legioilynx.wordpress.com/…/womens-rights…/

http://calteches.library.caltech.edu/583/2/Searle.pdf

^ Particularly good read, from the link:

—– —–
The medieval marriage involved the transfer of property to the new couple by their parents; it involved an act of inheritance. And in courts that sought merit as the criterion of acceptability, strong property rights for women were an important asset. Any medieval girl thus was a potential heiress as well as the recipient of a dowry at her marriage. These strong principles of property rights played an important part in recruitment to the group
—– —–

>> bring cases to court,

^^^ Yes, they could

https://books.google.com/books?id=Z4SL2X3uHEAC&pg=PA134…

>> testify in their own defense,

^^^ Yes, they could. See above.

>> choose their own marriage partner.

^^^ While this is mostly true, it’s a bit more complex, and the woman did have choices.

http://www.brown.edu/…/dweb/society/sex/sex-spouses.php

>> I could go on.

^^^ You could, but you’ve gotten so much wrong already. From the AAUW study you cited early on until now, you’ve not actually refuted any of the points I put forward yet, nor have you provided any evidence for patriarchy in the modern day US.

I mean even if we did allow for medieval Europe to be a “patriarchy” (it was actually a feudal system, but whatever), you’re absolute BEST hope here is that remnants of chivalry from that age, existing as modern day politeness from men, somehow, someway, still counts as “patriarchy”.

The argument is basically “because people were polite during this patriarchy hundreds of years ago, if people are polite today, that’s patriarchy!” – because both share the same quality of politeness.

And sorry to bring this up again, but I’m once again starting to wonder how the hell you’re a professor. I mean, okay… you have an associates degree, and you teach at a community college?? That … I can see that! That’s possible. But there’s no way you have a PhD in gender studies and you’re this unfamiliar with life in the middle ages.

awkwardlistdotcom.files.wordpress.com
Athena Brown

Athena Brown >> In some households women did exercise power, but that was because her husband allowed it. He gave her the keys when he went off, and she became chatelaine of the household.

^^^ Yea that’s not at all accurate. Women could work and even run small shops in the middle ages. Here’s an actual history book you can read when you got time.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Z4SL2X3uHEAC&pg=PA68…

>> This idea of female ownership will perpetuate until the 20th century when women spent close to 100 years agitating for the vote in the US.

^^^ I’m wondering… do you also go for that whole “Columbus set sail to prove the world was round” bit? Because everything you’re saying here is so far departed from actual history, you could probably find a spot on The History Channel.

I’m not saying it was aliens…. but it was aliens.jpg.

https://www.gilderlehrman.org/…/legal-status-women-1776…

From the link:

—– —–
They had the legal right to live where they pleased and to support themselves in any occupation that did not require a license or a college degree restricted to males. Single women could enter into contracts, buy and sell real estate, or accumulate personal property, which was called personalty. It consisted of everything that could be moved—cash, stocks and bonds, livestock, and, in the South, slaves.
—– —–

I can’t help but start asking again. What college do you teach at?

>> To be clear, other than bodice rippers, and imagery- men weren’t actually throwing their lives down for the women.

^^^ An undeniable part of Chivalry is a man putting a woman before himself; to fight for her, to serve her, to be her champion. This is so deeply ingrained in our understanding of what “Chivalry” is, that it seems nonsensical – almost surreal – to start trying to redefine it towards 3rd Wave narrative. But of course, 3rd Wavers will try anyway.

http://www.theatlantic.com/…/lets-give-chivalry…/266085/

From the link:

—– —–
“This past spring marked the 100th anniversary of the sinking of the Titanic…In Washington DC, there is a memorial to these men. The inscription on it reads: ‘To the brave men who perished in the wreck of the Titanic…They gave their lives that women and children might be saved.’”
—– —–

Also from the link:

—– —–
Historically, the chivalry ideal and the practices that it gave rise to were never about putting women down, as Connelly and other feminists argue. Chivalry, as a social idea, was about respecting and aggrandizing women, and recognizing that their attention was worth seeking, competing for, and holding.
—– —–

Again, even if we conceded that chivalry was somehow treating women like victims (because that’s *the*only* interpretation that’s ever allowed) – it still does nothing to prove patriarchy existing in the US today. Just because 2 things share a particular element does not make those two things the same.

I breathe air. Adolf Hitler breathed air. I must be Hitler!

Chivalry (patriarchy) treated women with kindness. Men today treat women with kindness. Omg patriarchy is still here today!

>> You compare our western society to Arab societies. But surely you realize that you cannot compare a first world society and a third?

^^^ So you can’t have patriarchy in a 3rd world country?

Because I’m not comparing economics, GDP, GNP, PPP, exports, imports, income per capita, or anything else relevant to a 1st world vs a 3rd world country.

I’m showing you where patriarchy exists, and where it doesn’t exist. That’s the only thing relevant in this comparison.

>> Patriarchy in the US is different because it is a different culture. Patriarchy takes a different shape.

^^^ Evidence please.

Information about women in this truly fascinating period from 500 to 1500 is in…
Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm

Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm Actually I never said Phd, I said professor. I have a MA, and am ABD. Yes, I am sure there are exceptions to the predominant rules. There always are.

The bathroom thing does not have anything to do with patriarchy- it is clearly an employee or multiple employees indiscriminately implementing a policy. If you were elderly they would likely give you the key as well.

I find you picking apart my information laughable, because clearly you don’t understand academia. Nobody agrees on much, and new information changes the historical record constantly… like the new fertility deities that are male and date to the same age as the venus sculptures. Can completely change the historical record. Never said I was a medievalist. But I do understand how Feudalism worked, along with the Catholic influences on Western society. Is the educated Heloise the norm in French medieval society? No. Is there a book about her? Of course! She was special. Whenever we find something out of the norm we analyze and write about it. But truly I am done. I am sure you will respond negatively to anything I say….so all I will say is go in peace. I get paid well, and am evaluated by other academics regularly to make sure my lectures, ideas, and methodologies are accurate. Last two evals were superlative. So I really don’t need you, or Facebook for validation or approval. I tried to show you something without realizing how truly closed your mind already is. So, go in peace. I hope you find the answers you seek elsewhere.

Athena Brown

Athena Brown >> I don’t see why you can not accept that patriarchial systems hurt both men and women.

^^^ That’s not even the discussion. I totally agree that patriarchal systems hurt everyone.

The discussion is – 6th time now (we’re keeping count):

1) How do you explain all the observations from above (why would they exist in a PATRIARCHY),

and

2) Where is your evidence that it [patriarchy] exists?

Sure, patriarchy is bad. That was never the question. Where is your evidence that patriarchy exists in the US?

>> They perpetuate unequal laws,

^^^ Yup.

>> which aren’t good,

^^^ Uh-huh.

>> and perpetuate gender roles that play into a strong gender binary.

^^^ Arguably true.

>> It perpetuates ideas that hurt men as much as women.

^^^ Sure.

Now……….. where. Is. Your. Evidence.

That.

Patriarchy.

Exists.

In. The. United. States. Today?

>> And funny- when I do a quick research of 4th Wave Feminism your name never pops up? You invented 4th wave feminism?

^^^ I did indeed. However, 4th Wave Feminism is not about me. I have no intention of ever getting “famous” off the work I’ve put into my research. In 2015, I published a peer reviewed book on feminist theory, and began uploading much of it’s contents to 4th Wavers – the contents have sense not only survived further peer review, but ongoing public review. The comments section on 4th Wavers is open, and no comments are ever “awaiting moderation”. If you find an error with any of my research there, you’re free point it out and offer corrections.

I have no intention of ever selling the book. It’s free, and I’ve uploaded much of it to 4th Wavers already. I believe this research is too important to the public discussion on feminism now taking place. It’s important that we debunk 3rd Waver myths, because they’re absolutely toxic to women and the women’s rights movement.

I hope one day that 4th Wavers will take off, and fly away without me. I’m more interested in social change, and helping to empower women.

Athena Brown

Athena Brown >> Yet when I Google your name I just get a bunch os social media sites.

Okay, posting a screen shot now.

https://4thwavers.wordpress.com/…/proving-this-site-is…/ – there you go. (That’s temporary by the way – it’ll be deleted January 15th. It simply proves that I do own the site.)

Again, I have never promoted myself, because I honestly don’t care to be recognized as the creator. I’m not trying to get famous. I want 4th Wavers to one day take off on it’s own.

>> Sorry. At this point I believe you are not truly seeking answers to your questions.

^^^ Oh come on, really? I asked 2 questions. You haven’t answered either one.

And you’re going to bow out now, using the fact that you can’t find me on google as an excuse?

>> You clearly have no grasp of history

^^^ Oh god… the irony on that one.

>> nor do you require rigor in your sources, so you believe anything if it seems true.

^^^ I’ve provided you with a multitude of different sources. Tell me which ones you don’t like, and I’ll find you several OTHER sources that will give you the same information. So far, everything I’ve posted is credible.

You on the other hand have not provided any sources at all. You mentioned a few authors, and that’s all.

Your position is that Patriarchy exist in the US. Because you’re making that assertion, the burden of proof lies upon you to provide evidence. Now if patriarchy is just so darn evident, and you’re a *PROFESSOR*… why the hell can’t you offer up even one iota of evidence to back your claim?

>> I haven’t cited sources because everything I stated is common knowledge – something you would find in most survey collegiate history texts

^^^ Amazing.

I posted you sources to *actual* collegiate history texts that refute the things you’ve said.

Yes, believe it or not, Columbus did not try to prove the world is round. Women *COULD* own property in the middle ages, and most certainly could by the 1700s in America. This is “common knowledge” – and yet a simple 5 minute google search is all it took to prove otherwise.

You should have bowed out ages ago when I gave you a chance the first time.

This is a temporary post I’m making for a certain someone who claims they’re a…
Athena Brown

Athena Brown >> The bathroom thing does not have anything to do with patriarchy- it is clearly an employee or multiple employees indiscriminately implementing a policy.

^^^ That same exact thing could be said about any female privilege.

But the point is, it’s still a privilege. And you’ve still not explained how or why it would exist in a patriarchy.

That seems like such an easy question for something so abundantly obvious that you don’t feel the need to even cite any sources. You’ve still not answered.

>> I find you picking apart my information laughable, because clearly you don’t understand academia. Nobody agrees on much, and new information changes the historical record constantly

^^^ I offered numerous sources, all of which refuted your “common knowledge” claims.

>> But I do understand how Feudalism worked, along with the Catholic influences on Western society. Is the educated Heloise the norm in French medieval society? No. Is there a book about her? Of course!

^^^ That has nothing to do with my 2 original questions. You still have not answered them.

=====================
1) How do you explain all the observations from above (why would they exist in a PATRIARCHY),

and

2) Where is your evidence that it [patriarchy] exists?
======================

It’s pretty clear that you can’t answer these, and now you’re running from the debate so you don’t have to.

>> I am sure you will respond negatively to anything I say

^^^ Well, so far:

— You’ve tried to dismiss me from this debate because I grew up male, and therefore wouldn’t understand “the dynamics”. Once I challenged this point you abandoned it almost immediately and instead tried to back-peddle by fawning concern for the transgender community.

— Used the term “male gaze” incorrectly.

— COMPLETELY blew it on explaining the origins of patriarchy. I provided 2 sources, one from a highly accomplished feminist archaeologist, that explains this subject in detail. You abandoned that point as well.

— Listed 7 ancient civilizations by name. Was dead wrong on at least 4 of them.

— Cited the AAUW study. I provided no less than 3 authoritative sources responding to that study, debunking it.

— Showed that you did not understand what 3rd Wave Feminism was, or what it was about (it’s not “intersectionality”). I provided a link that included multiple sources. You abandoned this point immediately.

— Stated medieval women couldn’t own property. Shown to be wrong.

— Stated medieval women couldn’t bring cases to court. Shown to be wrong.

— Stated medieval women couldn’t testify in court. Shown to be wrong.

— Stated that women couldn’t exercise power on their own. Shown to be wrong.

— Stated that chivalry was a product of patriarchy, but couldn’t explain why or how (probably because it’s wrong).

— I’ve asked over 7 times for evidence of patriarchy in the US. Exactly 0 of those times did you answer the question, or provide any evidence.

— Gave one last shot at discrediting me by claiming you found me on social media by using a google search (really?)

— You’ve made such a big show out of “being a professor at a university”, used heavily condescending remarks telling me I should sign up for your classes so you could “teach me your wisdom”, yet virtually everything you’ve said so far has dodged my original questions (7 + times, still no answer) and has simply been wrong.

As well, you’ve refused to say what university you work at.

And I’m guessing it’s because you don’t actually work at a university.

You’re just a well-read 3rd Waver who likes to pretend, and you thought since you’ve browsed a few informative sites a couple of times, that you’d come here and “teach me a lesson”. Didn’t work out that way, did it?

But yea, there might be a reason things are looking negative for you here.

>> I get paid well, and am evaluated by other academics regularly to make sure my lectures, ideas, and methodologies are accurate.

^^^ No, you don’t. Because almost everything you’ve said in this discussion so far was able to be refuted with a simple 5 minute google search. I’m not buying it that you actually work at a university. It’d be easy enough to just tell us the name, and a simple check of their faculty could confirm it.

Sare Kumagai Neža Vižintin — still think she said the right things to me?

Like · Reply · Just now · Edited

Andrew Joseph
Andrew Joseph Gwen, why do I get the feeling that you’re full of shit whether you’re teaching a class or not? Just because Athena isn’t a student paying tuition doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be willing to engage her in debate on here. That strongly implies that you’re all style and no substance, and that in class you hide behind the mantle of authority to force your views on students instead of engaging in a mutually beneficial exchange of ideas. You’re trying to play yourself off as some sort of indispensable professional with highly valuable knowledge, when in reality you’re just another subpar intellect getting paid to indoctinate other people in government-subsidized grievance studies.
Dennis Adkins
Dennis Adkins Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm I call bullshit. You are not a gender studies professor, You are an associate faculty member in the History department at a community college. Why you gotta try to lay down some bullshit?
Like · Reply · 1 · 23 hrs · Edited
Dennis Adkins
Dennis Adkins
Dennis Adkins
Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm
Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm I am a gender/sexuality historian who teaches gender history. That is a gender studies professor. I dont believe I said university. I believe I said professor. And I am.
Dennis Adkins

Dennis Adkins Wrong, I looked you up, you are a history teacher that tries to inject feminist theory into your history class. Been reading over some of the comments on your “ratemyprofessor” page. Very interesting reading.

“I feel she would be an exceptional teacher if she would stay on topic. She allows students to distract her and get her off topic. I find her unbalanced in her views. She definitely leans left and very feminist. I don’t mind it, but it does get tiresome like she is beating a rotting horse. ”

“The class was very unorganized throughout the semester. She repeatedly brought up women’s history and gender roles which I thought became annoying after a while.”

“Nice lady but I dont recommend her class. She is very feminist which is interesting but the class is hard.”

“It gets hard for a guy to get through this class sometimes because of all the feminism flying around”

“mixes women’s history into the class”

“. She is a feminist, but that’s okay. She provides a great feminist perspective on history”

“Yes, she teaches from a feminist perspective,”

“She teaches from a feminist point of view”

“his teacher is a hardcore feminist. Do not take this class if you want to learn history from an unbiased point of view.”

” and she teaches all History classes from a feminist point of view”

So no, you are not a gender studies professor, you are an associate professor that uses your history classes as a pulpit and a platform for you feminist agenda. Which I find truly reprehensible. Your obvious bias has been noticed and commented on extensively.

And I never said anything about a university either. But you came on here acting like you are some hot shot professor of gender studies so we should all listen to you. When you are nothing more than a glorified assistant at some rinky dink community college who uses her position to push her feminist bias onto malleable youth. Your abuse of your position is disgusting.

Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm
Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm Did you notice that some of those comments were from a women’s history class, or when the texts are gender/sexuality specific….what do you expect? By the way…students drop the classes that only teach white male history. And rate my professor gives you mostly students who either love or hate a professor no in between. I teach skills in my classes that students actually use and can take beyond history…was that mentioned? Nope. Specifically the skills taught are not how to write a research paper but how to deconstruct a secondary source. This improves their critical reading so they retain more and critical writing so they have stronger writing skills. In a history class- because writing is required, they are unprepared for the level of writing and I dont want to just fail them- so I actually teach outside my discipline to make sure they can pass. I am privileged enough to get to work in a CC because that is where I choose to work. I love it there. I do not see it as less. I actually get to teach- not lecture from a pulpit. (Oh lecture is only about 40%of my class. Students interests in the material drive the course- which tends to drive into marriage, family, gender, sexuality- points of reference we all can share, and have opinions and discussion. If they want to talk about war- we do that too. My holocaust lecture usually makes them cry. My Opium Wars lecture shows what happens when you don’t understand the culture you want to deal with. 75 % of my students engage because they like it, 10 because they want to argue with me. .. so I have 85 % of my history class engaged. Learning skills, not just dates, and driving controversial discussion and making modern connections. Yeah I suck. That is why there is normally a waiting list for my classes. (School starts on the 25th and I only have seats in one class left, and when I checked- 12 of those students already enrolled had taken my classes previously….so I must really suck.) I am a rigorous instructor preparing them for a university and don’t give them any bullshit. Plus I make myself human by sharing my life with them before class starts if they ask. As they share theirs. I really suck…that is why I have all these damn letters of recommendation to write….that I don’t get paid to do- because as you so kindly pointed out I am still an adjunct. (Which is a choice I have made because I am not going to leave Southern California, my husband has a business here.)
Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm
Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm Oh and I tell them of my obvious bias the very first day. And that they will get more women’s history than they are used too, because I present a 50/50 class. How does that work? Well in a traditional class you read the Code of Hammurabi, mine too. But instead of the traditional pieces on economic law, we read about rape and how this is handled and what that means to society. We are reading the SAME source, but a different selection. So if you think that is bad teaching- you go ahead get your degrees, figure out how you want to teach your classes and have at it.
Athena Brown

Athena Brown You still ain’t answered those 2 questions, professor.

1) How do you explain all the observations from above (why would they exist in a PATRIARCHY),

and

2) Where is your evidence that it [patriarchy] exists?

You’re a gender studies professor / historian / and then some.

Why can’t you answer 2 questions?

>> I teach skills in my classes that students actually use and can take beyond history

^^^ Do those skills include answering really simple questions? Because you don’t seem able to do that.

>> Specifically the skills taught are not how to write a research paper but how to deconstruct a secondary source. This improves their critical reading so they retain more and critical writing so they have stronger writing skills.

^^^ You can do all that, but you can’t answer two questions.

>> I am privileged enough to get to work in a CC because that is where I choose to work.

^^^ Called it. smile emoticon

>> That is why there is normally a waiting list for my classes. (School starts on the 25th and I only have seats in one class left, and when I checked- 12 of those students already enrolled had taken my classes previously….so I must really suck.)

^^^ Sweetheart, you work in a COMMUNITY COLLEGE. This is where lower income folks go when they’re trying to earn a degree. OF COURSE you’re going to have classes packed when your degree cost as much as I spend on coffee each year.

But that’s not why you suck.

You suck because you came on here, made a big play out of being a professor, and claimed the US is a “patriarchy”. But then you failed to provide ANY evidence to back up your statement, and made numerous statements about history that were just plane wrong.

A history teacher that is repeatedly wrong about history simply isn’t a good teacher. Your classes are packed because they’re cheap – which is probably also why they got you as a teacher. You’re unaware of how women lived in the middle ages. Or how women lived in America in the 1700s. Or how women lived in most of the ancient civilizations you named.

>> I am a rigorous instructor preparing them for a university and don’t give them any bullshit.

^^^ Except when you tell them that patriarchy began when women lost control of the food supply?

Or how women in America during the 1700s weren’t allowed to own property?

Or how trans women don’t understand “the social dynamics” of a real woman?

…… sounds to me like bullshit is the only thing you do give them. But of course you can get away with that at a community college.

>> But instead of the traditional pieces on economic law, we read about rape and how this is handled and what that means to society.

^^^ Who wants to bet she also goes for the whole “rape culture” thing?

Still haven’t answered my 2 questions.

Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm

Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm Athena I have given you numerous examples. You talk about how you created 4th wave feminism. I called bullshit. You assumed I was a university professor- well honey, you assumed too much. I am a college professor, and because my claims held up, you demean. Like a man. Maybe I need to rethink how women accept the Trans community if this is how they act and respond. Like I said in my first post, don’t be a Caitlyn. Well you clearly don’t know history, you clearly don’t understand how academia works. You OBVIOUSLY don’t understand the differences between cc and uni teaching. Uni publish or perish- cc work with students and make a difference in people’s lives. I have had opportunities to teach in uni’s I turned them down- because I want to work with students. (My classes cap at 45 uni’s at 250.) Oh and your assumption that all students at cc are low income? Well I don’t know where you live but in Southern California it is impossible to get into local universities like SDSU, UCSD, UCLA. There are other colleges, but here many many students of all income levels, and students who go to UCSD, or SDSU take my classes. Because they prefer a smaller class, because it is cheaper, because it was impossible to get into their preferred school with a 4.2 GPA in high school. I am glad you earn sooooooo much money. I don’t. But I am blessed where I work. I am not wrong, I was speaking to overall patterns. Read Dubois for US History, oh but you don’t actually read…. Read Nancy Cott…yeah still probably not going to educate yourself beyond wordpress and wikipedia. So ms I invented the 4th wave the biggest problem with the 4th wave- nobody knows shit about you unless you know the secret password. I don’t need a secret password for my feminism. I am upfront about it. From day one. I already gave you Gerda Lerner, but you can’t have a discussion about theory. Why? Because you are an uneducated hack otherwise known as a troll. I hoped to have a theoretical discussion with you, but YOU CAN’T DISCUSS THEORY BECAUSE YOU DON’T KNOW ANY OTHER THAN THE ONE YOU PULLED OUT OF YOUR ASS. That isn’t academia. We build on eachother and argue, but we don’t do this. It is beneath us. You call me wrong when 3 different World/Western survey texts, Bulliet, McKay, Hunt, will all say I am correct. I would give you the full cation but let’s be real it wouldn’t change your opinion. Yes, of course there are exceptions to the rule. But I was correct. US Historians Sklar, Cott, and Dubois would all agree with me. You can argue minutia. But again nothing is going to change your opinion. I am a professional, but you can diminish it- I notice you haven’t stated what you do. God knows it isn’t an English teacher.

For the record, I generally don’t address trans politics…only history and modern political drama. But maybe after this encounter I will stop trying to educate my exceptionally conservative students (Lots of military in San Diego) on Trans issues. You can do just fine on your own without my advocating for your rights. Since you clearly will not be advocating for gender equality. (Because you might run into more feminists who believe in the evil patriarchy.)

Athena Brown

Athena Brown >> Athena I have given you numerous examples.

^^^ No you haven’t.

You’ve tried to explain away the very clear female privileges, but haven’t explained why they exist in a patriarchy. You proceeded to list off numerous historical myths and fallacies, and you still haven’t answered the 2 questions I put forward.

>> You talk about how you created 4th wave feminism. I called bullshit.

^^^ And then I provided you with a post on 4th Wavers proving the site was mine. The site is dedicated to 4th Wave Feminism. To my knowledge, no other such site exists. This one is the first.

>> you demean. Like a man.

^^^ Oh COME ONNNNNNNNNNNNNNN.

Are you **seriously** going to start attacking my gender NOW? It’s bad enough you’ve fallen this far, but now you’re at the bottom, you’re gonna grab a shovel and keep digging further.

>> You OBVIOUSLY don’t understand the differences between cc and uni teaching.

^^^ You came in here, loudly and proudly waving around your credentials, “I’M A PROFESSOR AND I’M HERE TO SCHOOL YOU”.

Virtually everything you’ve said so far has been wrong. Now you’re getting frustrated and attacking my gender, and it seems this is going to devolve into name calling pretty quickly.

>> I am not wrong, I was speaking to overall patterns. Read Dubois for US History, oh but you don’t actually read

^^^ Hey how bout you read those links on US history I posted earlier. You know, the one that explained how women in the US could own property just fine?

After you said they couldn’t?

Now you’re suggesting I start reading?

>> So ms I invented the 4th wave the biggest problem with the 4th wave- nobody knows shit about you unless you know the secret password. I don’t need a secret password for my feminism.

^^^ ……. I have no idea what she’s talking about.

Password?

Nobody knows about me because, as I very clearly explained (maybe you should read more), I have deliberately not associated my name with 4th Wave Feminism, because my goal is *NOT* to get famous from the movement.

>> I already gave you Gerda Lerner, but you can’t have a discussion about theory. Why?

^^^ Because you don’t win a debate by simply NAMING PEOPLE! I can do that too. Watch.

“Go read Earnest Hemingway!”

See what I did there? I told you to go read a book.

…… what’s that? You didn’t stop everything and go read an entire book before your next post? YOU DON’T KNOW HOW TO READ!

You know what you could do? You could answer my questions. 10th time I’m asking.

1) How do you explain all the observations from above (why would they exist in a PATRIARCHY),

and

2) Where is your evidence that it [patriarchy] exists?

And no, the answer isn’t “go read a book”. The answer is explaining how on earth a patriarchy could exist in the US. Back up your position with evidence.

>> Because you are an uneducated hack otherwise known as a troll.

^^^ That’s not what the word “troll” means.

Add that to the now growing list of terms you’ve gotten wrong.

>> YOU CAN’T DISCUSS THEORY BECAUSE YOU DON’T KNOW ANY OTHER THAN THE ONE YOU PULLED OUT OF YOUR ASS.

^^^ You’re the only one in this discussion so far who has not provided any evidence, links, sources, or references. And still can’t answer 2 very simple questions no matter how many times they get asked.

>> You call me wrong when 3 different World/Western survey texts, Bulliet, McKay, Hunt, will all say I am correct.

^^^ Because. You are. Wrong.

Most early human civilizations started out as matriarchies. This has been absolutely proven beyond any contention.

Women in the middle ages could go to court and could testify. We have written records of this actually happening.

Women in the 1700s could own property. Again, written records. It doesn’t matter how many names you drop. These things really did, honestly, actually, happen.

If I said George Washington was the first president of the United States, you couldn’t go “READ McKay! This book agrees with me!” – and expect history to suddenly be different. If this is your understanding of how logical proof works, I can’t fathom how on earth you became a professor, even if it is just at a community college.

>> But again nothing is going to change your opinion.

^^^ Sure it will! Evidence will change my mind. This is the 11th time I’m asking.

1. How can you explain all the observations given earlier, and

2. Where is your evidence that patriarchy exists?

>> I am a professional

^^^ Oh, so THAT’S why you’re attacking my gender and resorting to ad-hominens.

>> But maybe after this encounter I will stop trying to educate my exceptionally conservative students (Lots of military in San Diego) on Trans issues.

^^^ THANK GOD! With the sheer volume of things you’ve gotten totally and completely wrong about everything up until now, I can only imagine the just-as-easily-disproved myths you must be teaching about trans identity.

>> Since you clearly will not be advocating for gender equality. (Because you might run into more feminists who believe in the evil patriarchy.)

^^^ Correct – and those feminist won’t have evidence either. And I can ask THEM 11 times in a row, and they won’t be able to provide any just like you can’t.

Because Patriarchy doesn’t exist in the US. It’s just a tool for victim-enabling. It’s because I believe in empowering women that I stand so strongly against self-victimizing narratives like that one. There is no secret scary shadowy WHITE MEN out there controlling everything, as you probably teach (though of course you dress it up to sound pseudo-academic). Women can do anything they put their minds to. They aren’t perpetual victims.

4th Wavers is dedicated to empowering women. We do that in large part by debunking silly myths like patriarchy.

When They Just Can’t Win, Part 2: Patriarchy in the US

Feel free to link this page anytime you’re in a discussion over the myth of patriarchy!

So I found myself in a discussion on UltraViolet’s thread, which you can see here: https://www.facebook.com/weareultraviolet/posts/959622207441156 (and in case they see this and make the community private, the story being discussed is here: http://www.cosmopolitan.com/politics/a49050/daniel-holtzclaw-trial-oklahoma/ ).  For those of you who don’t know, UltraViolet is a 3rd Waver site, much like Upworthy and Everyday Feminism.  So naturally when I opened the comments section, I saw the usual rhetoric, claims of victimhood, and man-hating that I’m sure most of our regular visitors are familiar with.

During the course of the discussion, I decided to post some research related to the concept of the US being a “patriarchy”, which you’ll see in a bit.  It was one of those things where after I was done, I thought “this is actually pretty good.  I could put this up on 4th Wavers later.”

But as the exchange went on, as is typical when one side starts losing the argument, they contacted the page administrators and got them to delete the thread.  Can’t win the argument?  Time for censorship!

This is why I make a habit of copy-pasting everything I post.  ^_^

So here it is.  Enjoy!
========================================================

Michelle Mullen

Because like it or not, we live in a patriarchal society. As long as men are the primary aggressors in sexual assault, this topic will NEVER get as much attention as it deserves.

Like · Reply · 40 · 15 hrs
Hide 11 Replies
Athena Brown
Megan Elizabeth
Megan Elizabeth Athena, yes it is a patriarchal society and yes men are the primary aggressors in sexual assault. Look up the statistics of who rapists are please. Over 90% are male.
Like · Reply · 4 · 9 hrs · Edited
Megan Elizabeth
Megan Elizabeth Here, I did it for you. According to “exploring the dimensions of human sexuality” by Greenberg Breuss and Haffner, 93.7% of rapists are male and 6.3% are female. Rape is overwhelmingly a male-committed crime. Also, 99% of women and 85% of men are raped by a male according to a study by the Boston Area Rape Crisis Center.
Like · Reply · 1 · 7 hrs · Edited
Madolyn D Jenkins
Madolyn D Jenkins Athena Brown WHAT PLANET HAVE YOU BEEN LIVING ON!!! WHAT AN IGNORANT STATEMENT!!1 [RAWWWRRRRR!!!]
Like · Reply · 4 · 8 hrs
Megan Elizabeth
Megan Elizabeth YES MADOLYN YESCaps lock fury
Erin McClellan
Erin McClellan GTFO Athena wow.
Like · Reply · 1 · 8 hrs
Giancarlo Jusino Sánchez
Giancarlo Jusino Sánchez In those studies rape is defined as the act of penetrating the mouth, vagina, or anus. Essentially, females are excluded by definition.
Athena Brown

Athena Brown You think we live in a patriarchy? Fine. Lets go over this step by step.

[Sh*t’s about to get real.]

First we’ll begin by using the absolute loosest definition of patriarchy so that it has the greatest possible chance of survival against rational inquiry; it’s a system wherein “masculinity is favored over femininity”. That’s it! That’s the only definition we’re using.
If that were true:
.
— Why is it totally okay to beat a man in public, but men can’t even LOOK at a woman without it being labeled and denounced? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRCS6GGhIRc
.
— Why would we have laws allowing women to file charges of sexual harassment because of a swimsuit calendar in your cubicle? http://ehsdailyadvisor.blr.com/2012/06/can-you-recognize-sexual-harassment-when-you-see-it/
.
— Why would we lower the physical requirements of women joining police departments (http://www.pstc.nh.gov/faqs.htm), the military (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_Physical_Fitness_Test), and remove tests for fire departments altogether (http://nypost.com/2014/12/11/fdny-drops-physical-test-requirement-amid-low-female-hiring-rate/), even when it’s been repeatedly demonstrated that women who actually bothered training would have no such need? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3fD-L-Gdjg
.
— Why would I, as a woman, be allowed to board the bus ahead of someone who was clearly standing in line before me? Why is it when I drop something, three different men reach to pick it up? Why am I always allowed to use the restroom when the sign clearly says “no public restroom”? Why do I not have to pay for my own meals on dates? Why can I use the men’s room if there’s someone in the lady’s room, yet if a man tried that, he’d probably be arrested? http://www.katu.com/news/local/Portland-business-owner-in-battleover-bathroom-access-260064661.html
.
— Why are convicted killers of women more likely to get the death penalty? In a patriarchy. Where masculinity is more valued than femininity. http://www.presstelegram.com/article/20150627/NEWS/150628436
.
— Why are women almost never given the death penalty? In a patriarchy. Where femininity is not as valued as masculinity. http://www.businessinsider.com/women-and-the-death-penalty-2013-9
 .
— Why do we punish men just for the accusation of rape, but there’s virtually no recourse at all towards women who falsely accuse men of rape? If we valued men and not women, shouldn’t this be… reversed somehow?
 .
— Why would the suicide rate for men be 3 times higher than for women? In a society where they’re more valued? https://www.afsp.org/understanding-suicide/facts-and-figures
.
— Why are you able to stand up in public, anywhere in the modern day US, and shout “WOMEN ARE SMARTER THAN MEN!” – and get applause, yet if you did that same exact thing and shouted men were smarter than women, you’d get beaten up? No need for hyperlinks here – just go out and try it yourself.
.
— Why is it I can walk into a club wearing lipstick and eyeliner and have men fawn over me, yet for a man to have women fawn over him, he’d have to be a billionaire? What does money matter when men are more valued than women?
.
— Why would the Justice Department have an entire branch set up just for violence against women, even though domestic violence has been shown repeatedly to happen at equal rates to both men and women? http://www.justice.gov/ovw
.
.
— Why would we have Rape Shield laws?  http://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/rape-shield-laws.html.  How did those get passed in a patriarchy?
.
— If a building is on fire, how many people would rush in, risking their lives, to save Bob, the big fat bald-headed accountant? How many would rush in to save Tammy, the bikini model? Almost everyone goes for the model – but why, when Bob is more valuable because penis *cough* I MEAN “patriarchy”?
.
— If a woman is inside her house naked, and a man walks by and looks in the window, he’s a peeping tom, and gets arrested. Yet if it’s a man inside the house naked and a woman walks by, it’s still the man who gets arrested. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JRdFf8qtSc
.
.
— Why are we all okay with men being called nearly ever name under the sun (http://verbalabuseofmen.com/ ), but we need to “ban bossy”? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ban_Bossy
.
— I have a pass that allows me to eat dinner at some of the shelters around town.  Every evening when dinner is served, the women get to go first.  Why?  When we’re not as valued?
.
— Why does 97% of alimony cases go to women?  http://www.forbes.com/sites/emmajohnson/2014/11/20/why-do-so-few-men-get-alimony/ – shouldn’t it go to men?  Who are in power?  Who are in charge?  Who can just FORCE THE WOMAN to hand over her money and belongings to the man after a divorce?  (You know, like they do in the middle east?)
.
If you want to see what patriarchy looks like, just imagine a world where we flip all of these around. Imagine living in a country where is the exact opposite of everything we have in the US now. That might arguably be a “patriarchy”.
.
Is there any such place on earth that exists right now? Are there places where women are treated like trash just for being women? Why, yes, there is, as a matter of fact, glad you asked!!
.
.
.
.
.
.
And that’s probably the best indicator that we DON’T have that in the US. And that’s the answer to the original question put forward; yes, patriarchy is real, but not in any developed first world nation. WE DO NOT HAVE PATRIARCHY IN THE US!
.
The job 4th Wave Feminists have in front of us is to acknowledge legitimate women’s issues and get to work on them, while debunking the myths created by the 3rd Wave that hurt everyone.
Athena Brown
Athena Brown As for
>> “Here, I did it for you. According to “exploring the dimensions of human sexuality” by Greenberg Breuss and Haffner, 93.7% of rapists are male and 6.3% are female. Rape is overwhelmingly a male-committed crime.”
.
^^^ This conflicts with absolutely all other peer reviewed literature, especially that coming from the Rape Abuse and Incest National Network, the Bureau of Justice Statistics, and the FBI. So either all of the statistics in our judicial system are completely wrong, or the Greenberg study is flawed.
.
But of course I’m not going to use a simple dichotomy as an attempt to dodge. Link me to the actual study. I googled the title and name, and it appears to have come from a book.
.
I’d rather you link to the actual study, if you don’t mind, and we’ll go through and look at the methodology. I’ll post relevant parts of the study here to show whether they either do or don’t logically follow.
Barbara Mislan

Barbara Mislan Athena Brown are you kidding? An obscure reference to a man fired because of a calendar confirms we don’t have Patriarchy? Haha ok.

Here you are – 9 out of 10 rape victims are women. References at the bottom.

https://rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims

Athena Brown

Athena Brown

1) I listed nearly 20 different examples and provided links for nearly all of them, and you’re pretending like I provided only one.
.
2) The example you’re referring to is a criterion for sexual harassment in the workplace, as advised by Business and Legal Resources, and applies to every workplace all across the United States. How is that “obscure”?
.
I get that you’re a 3rd Waver and your worldview demands that you conform specifically to that particular narrative, but are you really unaware of the creationist tactics you’re using here?
.
3) The claim was not how many victims are women. It was Megan Elizabeth who claimed 90% of rapist were male. But besides that, the claim being made in RAINN’s own report comes from
.
“U.S. Department of Justice. 2003 National Crime Victimization Survey. 2003”
.
— it’s easy to google (which I’m sure you didn’t, because your goal is not to understand the actual truth, but to reinforce a preconceived narrative). You can read the actual report they’re using as a source here: http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv03.pdf
.
It’s worth noting that according to these numbers, rape accounted for a whopping 0.07% victim rate in 2003. How’s that pan out for your famous 1 in 5 number?
.
But anyway, I’ll let you look at the report, and you tell me what’s wrong with the 9 out of 10 number. HINT: the answer’s actually already been given to you in this thread.
.

(and if you’re *REALLY* slow, here’s another hint: https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/recent-program-updates/new-rape-definition-frequently-asked-questions )

Michelle Mullen
Michelle Mullen Athena Brown So you think WOMEN rule the world? Really? No. This IS a patriarchal society, because men have most of the power in it. Women are making gains, but we have to FIGHT for every single thing we get. That includes the right of bodily autonomy. In this society (and it will get even worse if the rightwing “christians” have their way), the dead have more bodily autonomy than women, especially if we get pregnant. You can deny it all you want, but it’s the truth. You’re entitled to your own opinion, but you can’t present that opinion as fact. And while women CAN rape, it is BY FAR men who do it the most – and then try to excuse it many times with crap like “what was she wearing,” “was she drinking,” etc. Victim blaming (when they even admit that a woman IS a victim of rape and don’t try to change the definition of rape) at its worst. Anyone who tries to dispute that is delusional.
Like · Reply · 2 · 7 hrs
Erin McClellan
Erin McClellan And don’t fucking insult people’s intelligence either, you ableist jerk.
Athena Brown

Athena Brown >> Athena Brown So you think WOMEN rule the world?

^^^ No. It’s ridiculous to suggest it’s either a patriarchy or a matriarchy, as if only one or the other can exist.

We live in a mostly egalitarian constitutional republic where everyone can participate in public events and free elections (though some elements of racism still do exist, and men clearly don’t have the same power as women).

>> This IS a patriarchal society, because men have most of the power in it.

^^^ Again, I just provided you some 20 examples showing where women have the power. I’ve yet to see any instance where exclusively men have “power”.

>> That includes the right of bodily autonomy.

^^^ Roe v Wade has existed since 1973. If men had power, why did it pass? If men have power, why don’t they just overturn the ruling?

Oh, right, because women can vote, and women’s interests groups can stop them.

>> That includes the right of bodily autonomy. In this society (and it will get even worse if the rightwing “christians” have their way)

^^^ But why haven’t they gotten their way over the last 40 years? If men have all the power?

>> You’re entitled to your own opinion, but you can’t present that opinion as fact.

^^^ I gave you 20 DOCUMENTED EXAMPLES!!!! Seriously!

You haven’t presented any facts. Show me some evidence where “men have all the power”.

>> And while women CAN rape, it is BY FAR men who do it the most

^^^ According to whom? Earlier I posted statistics from the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the Bureau of Justice Statistics, among many other sources, demonstrating that this wasn’t the case (I guess the FBI criminal database counts as opinion because it disagrees with your narrative?)

>> and then try to excuse it many times with crap like “what was she wearing,” “was she drinking,” etc.

^^^ Over the last 60 years, there has never been 1 single instance in any mainstream media ever published (TV, magazines, newspaper, radio, etc) where rape was reported, and either of those statements were presented by the report as representing a consensus view.

That’s a fact. Show me 1 single instance where such a thing was reported and was accepted as mostly true by the general public.

What’s really mind blowing here is that a conviction of rape carried with it the death penalty until 1977. WHY ON EARTH would that happen, if men had all the power and we lived in a patriarchy?

Why would rape STILL be punishable by death in 2 states?

……… in a patriarchy? (make that example “opinion” number 21.)

>> Victim blaming (when they even admit that a woman IS a victim of rape and don’t try to change the definition of rape)

^^^ Honestly, in the post before this one, I even posted a link to where they changed the definition of rape in 2014.

You are literally not even reading what I’m posting. You’re reading 3 sentences, then firing off with nonsense I’ve already corrected.

>> Anyone who tries to dispute that is delusional.

^^^ https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/recent-program-updates/new-rape-definition-frequently-asked-questions — yes, delusional.

If reality doesn’t fit your story, then REALITY ISN’T REAL.

=============================================================

Then I went to dinner at PRM, and when I got back, the thread was deleted.

BUT NOT ANYMORE TROLOLOLOLOL!!!!

So like I said, feel free to link this post anytime you need to check a 3rd Waver back into reality “delusion”.