Yea, as you might expect from the title, this one’s gonna be filled with Anita Sarkeesian style antics.
This one was particularly difficult for me, as it involved a good friend of mine from the LGBT “community”, who I supported and gave encouragement to, and even shared several facebook groups with. But apparently that means nothing when you question the SJW narrative that mandates white guilt.
The thing of is though… this isn’t just any white-shaming. This was, and I’m dead serious…. “Mario is white, and that helped you get a job, so you’re privileged!” Go ahead and read below. That’s seriously the argument. I was smart enough to start saving the thread right from the start.
In this particular debate, I was *extra* nice about it, deciding to be as polite as I could be, and simply ask questions about the points put forward. Apparently even THAT is just too much, and my friend decided to block me. That was really the point I decided that I could no longer be a part of that community anymore. This is beyond ridiculous.
Anyway, here it is. Enjoy.
I am trying to think of playable video game characters who fit these parameters: Human, not white, not Asian; and I am having a really hard time. I never realized before that there really aren’t many, and I definitely think that is due to my white privilege.
The ones I was able to think of off hand are:
BD Joe from Crazy Taxi
Sazh from Final Fantasy XIII
Barrett from Final Fantasy VII
Edgar from Quartet (I am really reaching here)
Ratonhnhaké:ton/Connor from Assassin’s Creed III
I am sure there have to be others I cannot think of, do any of you have any ideas?
Athena Brown [And here’s where the fun starts!] I would have to strongly disagree with the white privilege idea. When you asked that question, my very first thought was Punch-Out. Crazy characters from all over the globe, including the original Mike Tyson himself (honestly not sure how Glass Joe being white gives me any sort of privilege in my day-to-day life).
Athena Brown Yea, I disagree that having a white character in a video game fits the definition of privilege, which is “an advantage granted to a group of people, usually due to some immutable factor, to which other people are not entitled”. Mario being white does not help me get a job or help me get housing. He doesn’t reduce my bills or make it easier to see a doctor. [Now keep a close eye on how polite I’m going to be about this from here on out. Amie was a good friend of mine, so unlike some of the other debates, my tone for the rest of this is carefully measured. I approach this by asking questions, and asking for evidence.]
I didn’t say white privilege doesn’t exist. If you can demonstrate, for example, evidence showing that a white person gets less sentencing for the same crime, that would be an “advantage” – and if its for no other reason than he’s white, that would be an “immutable factor”. That would fit the definition of “privilege”.
The presence of one instance of something happening does not preclude the existence of it happening elsewhere, and each individual assertion carries it’s own burden of proof.
Part of that PRIVILEGE we as white people have is the ability to be anyone in a videogame because of our race. We have the privilege of not being more commonly reduced to thugs or back up characters in media.
Athena Brown I’m pretty sure people understand that being black is normal though. I’m also not connecting the claim of being seen as normal with any actual advantage received, which is a necessary part of being privileged.
Can you demonstrate evidence that white people in video games contributes to discrimination against PoC?
>> Actually white privilege also falls into having something more readily available because of your race.
^^^ Privilege *must* include “advantage”. If poison mushrooms were more readily available to my race, that wouldn’t be a privilege. Why? Because it is not an advantage. The advantage has to be there for it to be a privilege.
>> You’re white so this is your white privilege making you blind to this
^^^ Sure. That’s why I’m asking for evidence. Maybe I really *DON’T* know. [Like I said, very measured.] So I’m taking the definition of the word “privilege”, and asking where the advantage is according to your claims.
>> but people really enjoy having relatable characters in their media.
^^^ I can relate to Leonardo from the TMNT, and he’s not even human. So this claim doesn’t stand.
>> Part of that PRIVILEGE we as white people have is the ability to be anyone in a videogame because of our race.
^^^ Really? Athena Brown can be in a video game?
Because I don’t think Mario is white, Athena is white, therefore, Athena is in a video game really works.
>> I wouldn’t bother arguing with her; anyone whose opinion she doesn’t like she just publicly shames on her MRA blog
^^^ I don’t have an MRA blog. I’m a feminst, and 4th Wavers is a feminist blog. You can see more about what 4th Wave Feminism is here: https://4thwavers.wordpress.com/about-this-site/
Athena Brown ^ So if I went outside right now, and asked people “is being black normal”…….. what would they say? [Everyone reading this, please leave your feedback. Do most of you think black people are normal? Is it really me being blind to my white priivlege that makes me think we live in a world where they’re normal, but no one else except me, and others who are “blind-by-privilege” think so?]
Because I’ll actually do that with a camera phone and youtube it. I’m extremely confident I know what people will say. I’m willing to bet a side of you also does, and you’re just being contrary.
Chell from Portal is said to be Hawaiian because she is modeled after Hawaiian actress Alésia Glidewell, though I’m not sure if that’s confirmed.
I’m surprised no one said Skyrim, but I guess they aren’t real races…?
The Prince of Persia game guy..?
Is Mario white? I mean, he’s white but does that count?
I honestly can’t think of any others…
But do you know what? There are other people in the world! So lets bring up an idea of other humans and other jobs than your line of work, shall we?
You can look up TONS of reports of people in the specific line of creating video games. First off, white people and Asians STILL get these jobs more than any other race in America. Past that if someone tries to create a video game with a non white/Asian main character it’s REALLY unlikely to go through, and even less likely to be popular. You can look this up OR you can just look at the lack of titles there are for this. It’s really obvious.
And you? It does personally help you. Having everything white washed makes your race less scary, and more relatable to the common other person. You aren’t as heavily stereotyped and even if you are, hell, there a billions of other characters to wash that one away. So when you walk into an interview, you’re your own person. You’re not a stereotype people see over and over as back up, not so great, characters in media. So yes, it helps you. Congrats.
I also think it’s funny you clearly didn’t read the original post well at all. Because you’re fighting that lots of white characters aren’t privilege (which is laughable) but the original post was of her saying she PROBABLY DIDN’T NOTICE because of HER PRIVILEGE. Not even that it was a privilege in the first place. Yuk yuk yuk.
Athena Brown [Notice how I’m responding point by point, with the “>>” being copy pasted from her, and the “^^^” being my reply]
>> You get a character, actually countless characters that you can more easily identify with and empathize with, and you don’t have to imagine yourself as something you’re not
^^^ I don’t have to imagine myself as something I’m not?
Okay, so… Mario is an Italian Plumber.
… but because he’s white… and I’m white… I don’t have to imagine I’m an Italian Plumber? … because I’m neither Italian, nor a plumber. So if I wanted to imagine myself as being him…
I’m reallyyyyyyyy not seeing how you’re connecting the logic on that one. I’m a mental health worker and social researcher. I’m not aware of any video game character who fits that description, so if I wanted to imagine I was any of them, I would most certainly be imagining myself to be something I’m not.
Which is actually part of the fun. It wouldn’t be fun at all to imagine I am something that I already am.
>> You have the advantage of being white and whining that something that is heavily white isn’t helping you get a job.
^^^ Well first, disagreeing with you is not an advantage that only I have for being white. In the US, everyone of every race has their freedom of speech protected. So again, this claim also does not stand.
You’re making the claim that a video game character being white gives me an advantage. I’m asking you what that advantage is. I used getting a job as an example. If I do have some kind of advantage – and thus, privilege – please do point it out to me. I really want to know.
>> But do you know what? There are other people in the world! So lets bring up an idea of other humans and other jobs than your line of work, shall we?
^^^ Sure. Show me how I have an advantage that other people do not, and how I got that advantage from video game characters being white please.
>> You can look up TONS of reports of people in the specific line of creating video games. First off, white people and Asians STILL get these jobs more than any other race in America.
^^^ So you’re saying people get jobs making video games, and the reason is because video game characters are white?
Okay, interesting claim. Do you have a study I can look at? A published report? Statistics? I would really be interested to see that claim validated.
Unfortunately, claims made without evidence are dismissed without evidence. Sorry bout that.
>> Past that if someone tries to create a video game with a non white/Asian main character it’s REALLY unlikely to go through, and even less likely to be popular.
^^^ Would absolutely LOVE to see the evidence on that one! Links please?
>> You can look this up OR
^^^ Whoa whoa whoa! Hold up there!
You might wanna look up how the whole “Burden of Proof” thingy works. Here’s a helpful link: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/burden-of-proof – the one making the claim has the burden of proof. So it’s you who’s gotta cough up those reports.
That’s how you get your claim accepted.
>> And you? It does personally help you.
^^^ Great! How?
>> Having everything white washed makes your race less scary, and more relatable to the common other person.
^^^ http://dailycaller.com/…/poll-shows-young-white-men…/ <— soooo… how did that happen? [Sorry the links are a bit cut-off from facebook’s automatic shortening… hopefully you can get an idea of the source from what you can still see]
>> You aren’t as heavily stereotyped
^^^ White men have only one thing on their mind.
They think of sex every seven seconds. http://www.gq.com/…/health-myth-does-the-average-man…
Whites are scared of other races. They’re scared they’re “losing something”. http://susanarinderle.com/dear-white-people-exactly-what…/
White’s are responsible for all sorts of horrible things and have to apologize constantly. http://www.experienceproject.com/…/White-People…/2309682
There’s even a wikipedia page of stereotypes against white people: https://en.wikipedia.org/…/Stereotypes_of_white_people… [But notice how I’m backing my claims up with links?]
So if your claim were true, how did all of this happen? Whites don’t appear to be less scary at all.In fact, there’s the proud black man, the proud Asian man, the proud Mexican, the proud lesbian, and the proud white.
Which one of those is racist? Without me telling you, and with no other information, which is it?
Long and short of it – I’m not seeing how having white video game character makes me less scary. But you’re certainly free to respond back with any of those studies you referred to earlier.
>> So when you walk into an interview, you’re your own person. You’re not a stereotype people see over and over as back up, not so great, characters in media.
^^^ Another interesting claim. How do you know that? [About as polite as I’ve ever been during one of these. And she blocked me anyway.]
>> So yes, it helps you. Congrats.
^^^ Evidence, and I’ll change my mind.
>> I also think it’s funny you clearly didn’t read the original post well at all. Because you’re fighting that lots of white characters aren’t privilege (which is laughable) but the original post was of her saying she PROBABLY DIDN’T NOTICE because of HER PRIVILEGE.
^^^ Right, and I disagree with the notion of privilege. I did read her post. I’m just disagreeing with that part. It’s also very possible that you don’t notice things simply because you’ve always seen them and gotten used to them. Ever put something down then forget where it was?
Also there is a wiki page on how to drink your own piss, doesn’t mean it’s gonna convince the masses it isn’t a bunch of bullshit. [“I can find a website that has false information on it. Therefore any links you posted are also false.”]
I no longer count myself as being part of the LGBT community, as I’m beginning to see that this community is just as intolerant as 3rd Wavers and SJWs in general.
I attended the Pride March in June, where I got to hear speaker after speaker explain to me how oppressed I was, and how the reason I can’t get hired is because of my identity (I’m already hired and love my job, but hey that’s probably only because Mario and Luigi were white). I was told that because I transitioned, I’ll now get paid 77 cents for every dollar I used to get paid (as a man I got $10.00 per hour, I’m now making well over $13 per hour). And of course, I was told how everyone hates me for being trans (except the only time I see people hating me is when I disagree with them over this kind nonsense).
Around 2 weeks ago, I had another good friend who I protested trans discrimination at Multnomah University with block me simply for asking how I, living in Portland, was a victim of the Orlando shootings, when I’m 2,000 miles away, and wasn’t shot. I mean I understand the reason to feel bad. But victim??… Aren’t the victims the ones that got shot? Asking the question is all it took to get blocked. The very next day, another trans person who I worked with at an employment agency here in Portland had called me out and tagged me on her wall telling me I was “cruel” for asking the question. I’ve been unfriended or blocked by so many others that I haven’t been keeping track, but it was that time getting blocked 2 weeks ago that made me re-think where I stood, and this incident that has definitely made it clear.
We are not actually a community. You’re only allowed to remain in if you agree with the faith based dogma. There’s a lot you must agree with, on faith, with no evidence and despite any contradictory evidence, and asking questions is forbidden. That’s hardly what I’d call a community, and definitely not something I’d want to be a part of anyway.