Response to “I’m Tired of Dating Men Who Think I Hate Men”

I got up super early this Saturday morning and began scrolling through my facebook newsfeed.  I remember back when I was a kid, and getting up early instead of sleeping in meant being able to see Saturday Morning cartoons characters.  These days it’s kinda the same.  I get up early, and I certainly still see characters!  Like this one:

http://www.marieclaire.com/sex-love/features/a20338/dating-while-black-and-feminist/

for postSaw this super-easy-to-pwn article and thought to myself, “Ah, why not?”  It’s a cheap and easy opportunity to create new content by aiming at such low hanging fruit, so here goes!

………………

>> When my (now ex) long-distance boyfriend asked me this question during a (literal) Netflix and Chill session, I was so stunned that I nearly dropped my phone.

^^^ First of all, the entire foundation of 3rd Wave Feminism is that men secretly hate women! How is it shocking when that question comes headed back your way?

And second, your boyfriend asked you that? I don’t think this was a question asked totally out of the blue. If he was with you long enough to end up being your bf and having a “netflix and chill” session, there’s probably some history to this question (as we’ll see in a bit).

>> It was not the first time a man had asked me this question.

^^^ Well “hint-hint” baby cakes. If you’ve been getting this question a lot lately, you might wanna clue in.

>> And despite the fact that I’m not one to ever be silenced—especially by such a cheap, clichéd trick

^^^ Yea we’re only like 2 paragraphs in and I’m already starting to see why he might have asked you this question about hating men.  Seriously alarm bells are going off and we’ve only just started.

>> My partner, who’d asked me to teach him more about why women need safe spaces

^^^ Why do they need safe spaces?

Is it because of male privilege / patriarchy / objectification / violence / wage gap / men saying “how-are-you” is cat calling / men looking at you the wrong way is “male gaze” / men hold doors open because they think you’re weak / men feel rejected when you turn them down because they feel “entitled to your body” (because feeling rejected isn’t just a normal human emotion) / a man can’t explain himself or it’s “man’splaining” / a man can’t even sit down without it being “man-spreading”?

holding door openEach individually linked.  Check off all that apply. Can’t *imagine* why someone would ask if you hate men.

(Interestingly enough, men paying for your dinner is rarely called sexist – and according to this article hyperlinked here, acknowledging that women are getting something for free is considered misogyny.  Strange how the script get flipped around like that when it involves women getting free stuff.)

>> “What if most men really are Ben Jordan? ‘Nice’ guys who love their partners but only in ways that keep themselves comfy?”

^^^ How DARE those men want relationships where they’re comfortable!

>> “That’s why The Story of Us is my favorite love story,” he said, beginning the film analysis part of the Chill session. “It’s just so real.”

^^^ For the record, I stopped watching TV about 15 years ago, and have only seen a handful of movies since. Have no idea who Ben Jordan is. Have never seen “Story of Us”.

>> “I think you’re saying that because Ben Jordan (Bruce Willis’ character)

^^^ Oh he’s a character. Okay, thanks.

Here I was actually googling Ben Jordan, thinking he must be some kind of actor.

The next few paragraphs are referring to what happened in a movie of some kind – not gonna bother looking up the movie or reading through the plot, because it won’t make a difference. She’s decided to interpret what she sees through the 3rd Wave narrative. I’ve written on how narratives work before: https://4thwavers.wordpress.com/2015/11/24/science-vs-story-telling-how-do-you-know-whats-actually-real/

In short, if the woman character accepts the man, it was patriarchy making her forcefully accept him when he wouldn’t change. If she doesn’t accept the man, it’s patriarchy punishing her because he won’t change. If the man changes the way she wants, it’s patriarchy being condescending to her because men change to fit her needs (we can even then say “damsel in distress”). If she can’t find a man – oh so women need men? If she does find a man – oh look a man’s right there to solve her problems! If she doesn’t want to find a man – look at how much she struggles because there aren’t any good men! If she does want to find a man – oh so women need men?

Another brilliant and short example of how narratives work, from the link above: https://4thwavers.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/changing-feminist-narrative.png

Narratives allow you to superimpose your conclusion onto virtually any situation without needing a shred of facts or evidence. When you repeatedly interpret every situation as being the fault of maleness (‘patriarchy”), then it’s no wonder people ask if you hate men.

Because you do.  You’re just dressing it up with pseudo-intellectual terminology.

>> “What a nightmare,” I continued, “to be stuck in a relationship with someone who will never sacrifice or change for your benefit but will expect you to do so for him while you suffer in silence.”

^^^ But again, if he does change for you, then he’s pandering to your whims and that’s how patriarchy hurts everyone (or feel free to make up your own narrative).

The narrative here is made even more painfully obvious if we switch the roles. What if a man wanted a woman to change, and she didn’t, and he was stuck putting up with her? I can already see Laci Green making a video on why patriarchy expects women to change when a man want’s them to!

>> For all the unpaid emotional labor I spent trying to “work” with him

^^^ ……. so this whole entire relationship, you were secretly acting as his therapist. This guy was just a pet project for you to see if men could be taught and trained properly.

And because you spent your “emotional labor” trying to “work” with him, he’s now supposed to agree with your narrative.

Again just imagine if we flipped the genders, how misogynist that would be.

>> trying to help him understand that the microaggressions I faced in the world weren’t tiny, insignificant problems

^^^ Yea they’re not tiny. That’s why they’re called *MICRO* aggressions. Somebody looks at you the wrong way for a half second, and that’s clearly a sign of patriarchy. A very real thing. Not micro at all.

>> I’m hesitant to apply the law of broken clocks here. In fact, I’m certain there are many men who offer reciprocal love and emotional support to their partners. They exist!

^^^ You know, I’m certain that somewhere out there, there’s a woman who isn’t a fragile little snowflake, who can handle herself in any situation, and doesn’t live off making excuses.

………. now if I posted that anywhere else besides here, how many screen shots of it do you think would be taken of it, and used as proof of misogyny?

>> But on a larger scale, where are these men when romantic love is off the table? Do they get that our society is so deeply invested in preserving patriarchy that groups of old white men throughout the country are succeeding at stripping women of their legal rights to govern our own bodies in the year 2016?

^^^ There is of course no patriarchy in the US. https://4thwavers.wordpress.com/2016/04/05/the-complete-and-final-resource-on-patriarchy-in-the-us/

>> While there are some men who may disagree with anti-choice legislation, who’s ready to grab a pick axe and dismantle rape culture with us?

^^^ For rape culture to exist, it would have to mean that the majority of men are not only okay with rape, but are potential rapists. Tell me again how you don’t hate men? Also: https://4thwavers.wordpress.com/2015/04/21/a-response-to-rape-culture-part-2of5/

>> While some men may think Black women making $0.64 to the dollar of what men make isn’t fair, who’s ready to chip in that $.36 to even it out?

^^^ I like how “black” is capitalized. Also already linked the wage gap myth earlier.

>> Yes, some men think it’s great that the women in their lives have thriving careers and won’t change their names after marriage, but who’s actually interested in doing the hard, long work of decolonizing heteronormative relationships?

^^^ No one. Because there’s absolutely nothing wrong with a heteronormative relationship.

A straight white dude is perfectly fine dating a straight white woman. There’s utterly nothing wrong with that.

Do you just… hate men?

>> The leading cause of death for Black women and girls ages 15-35 is domestic violence or intimate partner violence.

^^^ http://www.cdc.gov/women/lcod/2010/womenblack_2010.pdf <– it’s the first google result that comes up.

First result
I literally spent less than 5 seconds finding that link.

Homicide ranks number 2 on the age group mentioned, but this includes *all* homicide – only a percentage of that would be from domestic violence, and not all DV would end in homicide. DV also happens to men at roughly the same rate as it happens to women.

Moreover, many of these homicides are not happening because all men are vicious animals who have to be taught not to kill women.  They’re happening because black’s just happen to live in poorer neighborhoods (a result of racist policies that existed in the 1930s and 40s – one of the few actually demonstrable examples of white privilege), and poverty-stricken areas have higher crime rates.  http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=5137 <– Another page that took just seconds to find.  If you live in a poorer neighborhood, then all crimes – including homicide – is likely to happen more often.

>> James Dixon just pleaded guilty to beating Black transwoman Islan Nettles to death because he thought her being trans threatened his “manhood.”

^ Now tell me how my individual examples prove nothing about women, but how your individual example is clearly evidence of patriarchy. That’s how narratives work, after all!

babies in dumpsters
>> It’s denying you’re a misogynist because you “don’t hate women,” without realizing that thinking women deserve less than you isn’t love.

^^^ Irony.

When They Just Can’t Win, Part 6: These Are Getting Predictable

Not much to say in introducing this one.  We all know how this goes – 3rd Waver decides they’re going to “prove” to me in the comments section of a post that women are oppressed, they end up not being able to do that, then rage quit.

Bowing out from a discussion you’re clearly not qualified to have is always acceptable.  Trying to block or delete the entire discussion gets you a place on 4th Wavers.

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Haley Renae [This is the little bundle of joy that we’re dealing with today] Fuck you. Don’t be disrespectful to women, tell them what to do to/with their bodies, and then tell us to calm down when we get pissed. We have a right to be angry mr male privilege! Either deal with women getting pissed at you when you say disrespectful stupid shit, or stop saying disrespectful stupid shit.

Wanna learn about feminism so you can not be a dick? Feel free to visit my feminist page with over 10,000 followers that will agree with me! We talk a lot about not sexualizing women, maybe you can learn a thing or two.

Www.Facebook.com/betasteful

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Athena Brown

Athena Brown The post isn’t telling you what to do with your body. It’s simply informing you that most men don’t find this particular thing attractive. You’re still able to do what you want.

Also there is no male privilege in the US, and I wouldn’t mind joining your page to discuss that, but I’m approximately 100% certain that I would be banned in less than a day for posting stats and statistics that you don’t agree with.

Haley Renae

Haley Renae I don’t ban people for disagreeing with me, i ban people for being disrespectful assholes who don’t follow the rules.

One example of male privilege
https://www.whitehouse.gov/issues/equal-pay

President Obama and the Administration have made significant progress to bridge the gender pay gap, but there’s more to be done.
whitehouse.gov
Haley Renae

Haley Renae Oh and it is telling women that if they have those nails, men won’t find them attractive, and that they shouldn’t wear them so men can sexualize them more

Athena Brown

Athena Brown Nowhere on the post does it say you cannot wear them. It only says they’re not attractive to men – you can still keep wearing them.

If I said “These are not attractive to Athena” – then I would only be telling you the opinion of Athena. That’s not an order to stop wearing them.

Also, women get equal pay for the same level of work. They make less at the end of a fiscal year because of decisions they make regarding their careers. https://4thwavers.wordpress.com/…/the-wage-gap-myth…/

(Update: thanks to some persuasive criticism from Free Thinking Atheist Females, which…
4thwavers.wordpress.com
Haley Renae

Haley Renae I just gave you a government link, and you send me a wordpress. Impressive… Lol

Athena Brown

Athena Brown Yea, your government link only says “the wage gap exists”. No one’s arguing about that.

The link I gave you provides no less than 11 different links to various peer reviewed sources, including a link to 50 peer reviewed studies on the wage gap, all of which uniformly reach the same exact conclusion. Lol

Haley Renae

Haley Renae Maybe you should explore my link a tad more. Or go ahead and check the US DOL because they say the same thing

Athena Brown

Athena Brown Okay then, not a problem. Lets check your link a LOT more.

From your link:

>> Equal pay is a family issue. Women make up nearly half of the U.S. labor force and are a growing number of breadwinners in their families. More women are also working in positions and fields that have been traditionally occupied by men.

^^^ Completely true. Nothing wrong so far.

>> When women are not paid fairly, not only do they suffer, but so do their families.

^^^ Also true – but if you’re making the claim that women are paid UNFAIRLY, you now carry the burden of proof to present evidence for that claim.

Because we have over 50 peer reviewed studies demonstrating this not to be the case, it’s an extraordinary claim, and will require extraordinary evidence. But back to the link:

>> Despite passage of the Equal Pay Act of 1963, which requires that men and women in the same work place be given equal pay for equal work, the “gender gap” in pay persists.

^^^ Correct. It persists for reasons outlined in the 50 peer reviewed studies I linked you too earlier.

>> In 2014, the typical woman working full-time all year in the United States earned only 79 percent of what the typical man earned working full-time all year. Phrased differently, she earned 79 cents for every dollar that he earned.

^^^ Correct again – and this hyperlinks to another page which says the exact same thing.

Again, the pay gap is real, and no one’s disputing that. It’s caused by women’s personal decisions.

>> Decades of research shows that no matter how you evaluate the data, there remains a pay gap — even after factoring in the kind of work people do, or qualifications such as education and experience

^^^ Correct, because even when they’re doing the same job with the same qualifications, women are twice as likely to work part time, 3 times as likely to call in sick, much more likely to take time off, much more likely to choose shifts that fit their lifestyle, more more likely to choose work within a field that they prefer, etc etc etc etc etc.

>> and there is good evidence that discrimination contributes to the persistent pay disparity between men and women.

^^^ To date, there has never been a single paper published anywhere in the world, concerning the pay gap in the US, that demonstrates a link between discrimination and the gap.

Alright, now your turn.

Examine *my* link a little more closely and see what you come up with.

Haley Renae

Haley Renae So the government pages are wrong because you say so? Women choose to earn less for same work?

Athena Brown

Athena Brown I just finished explaining how those pages are almost entirely right.

I get that you still haven’t clicked the link I provided, for fear that it contains evidence that refutes your narrative, but are you not even reading what I say here?

Haley Renae

Haley Renae Yes i looked at it, yes I’m reading. Yes you’re being a fucking ignorant pompous ass.

Haley Renae

Haley Renae So not all of my government links are correct, but all of your word press link is. Cute

Athena Brown

Athena Brown Okay if you looked at it and you’re reading, it should be obvious what I said. The government page you linked to is mostly correct. The wage gap is real, but it’s caused by personal decisions.

Think of it like this:

If you’re a man, and you work in the medical field:

– If you work as an orderly…………lol omg loser!
– If you work as a nurse’s aid…….lol omg loser!
– If you work as a nurse………….. lol omg loser!!!
– If you work as a doctor………… Okay, acceptable. But only as long as you keep working yourself to the bone, non-stop, to prove your worth.

And then something interesting happens when this social stigma finally pushes more than a few men to the forefront: “Typical! Men are always in charge!”

However…

If you’re a woman, and you work in medicine:

– If you work as an orderly……….. You go girl!
– If you work as a nurse’s aid…… You go girl!
– If you work as a nurse…………… You go girl!
– If you work as a doctor………….. You go girl!

^ Now if you do not have that kind of social pressure, and you’re fine no matter where you land along the job hierarchy, then you’re far less likely to push yourself as hard. That’s what every paper ever written on the subject has concluded.

>> So not all of my government links are correct, but all of your word press link is.

^^^ Most of your government link is spot on. However, there has never been a paper ever published demonstrating a link between discrimination and the wage gap. So it’s simply not true to say that there’s evidence of that discrimination when there isn’t any.

The wordpress page links you to numerous studies and pages. Like I said there’s no less than 11 links – one of which is a report compiled by the Department of Labor specifically for the White House. I not only linked the study, I pasted the highlights of the study – it concludes that the gap is caused by women’s personal decisions.

You’re very welcome to read the study! If you find it’s in error, please copy-paste the paragraphs containing the errors, and explain how they’re wrong. That’s basically what I did with your government link. I read the entire link, and acknowledged that the entire link was correct, but pointed out precisely the part that was in error. You’re very free to do that as well and show me how the wordpress link is incorrect on any of it’s claims.

It’s not incorrect simply because it’s a wordpress. Surely you’re not going to ignore the contents of the link and resort to such fallacies.

Haley Renae

Haley Renae Oh so toxic masculinity and gender roles are to blame for the wage gap because women are turned away from sciences and men are made to feel like less of men for being in anything less than macho careers.

Those aren’t seriously personal decisions. Those are society’s traditional roles being pushed on people at early ages. Something feminism fights to end btw.

Haley Renae

Haley Renae Meritocracy huh?

Athena Brown

Athena Brown ^ Not sure what post you’re replying to, because I never said anything about toxic masculinity, nor that women are turned away from sciences. Also not sure how STEM is a “macho career”.

Again, virtually every study on women in STEM fields is concordant to what every other study now says – women choose not to enter STEM fields, and instead enter other fields. For some strange reason no one has a problem that there aren’t as many women garbage collectors, and everyone’s okay with women not choosing *that* field.

It doesn’t matter if you played with barbies or tanka drugs as a kid. Your decisions as an adult is your own choice and responsibility.

Haley Renae
Haley Renae
Dude own it. You said if a man is seen in a “woman’s role” that they are made fun of and made to feel like less of a man. That is toxic masculinity!
And society pushing stereotypical gender roles cause women to turn away from stem.

http://www.cornellrooseveltinstitute.org/labeling-gender…

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2834249/

Athena Brown

Athena Brown So anytime a woman is shamed for not following a female role, that’s toxic femininity?

The first link you provided also links to a study which you can find here: http://www.uchastings.edu/…/01/double-jeopardy-report.pdf

Straight from that study:

————–
The conventional wisdom is that women haven’t
progressed in careers in STEM due to the pull of children
and early choices not to pursue math and science careers
(Moss-Racusin, Dovidio, Brescoll, Graham, & Handelsman,
2012). Some studies conclude that the relatively low
percentage of women stems from these factors and “is
not caused by discrimination” in STEM (Ceci, Williams, &
Banett, 2009; Ceci & Williams, 2011; Ceci et al
., 2011)
————-

^ It’s pretty common to see a webpage link to a study where the study refutes the webpage. You can see another such instance of this here: https://4thwavers.wordpress.com/…/the-new-york-times…/ . The narrative that women are victims is so powerful, that it simply doesn’t matter if the study you link to refutes your claims. Most 3rd Wavers are only looking for confirmation, and aren’t going to read the actual studies anyway.

But back to the study, you occasionally do find anomalies like this one:

—————–
Yet three recent studies found that gender bias also
plays a role
. One found that, even when math skills were
identical, both men and women were twice as likely
to hire a man for a job that required math (Reuben,
Sapienza, & Zingales, 2014).
—————–

You can find a step-by-step answer to exactly why this result is occasionally found here: http://readingsubtly.blogspot.com/…/the-stem-fempire…

Then you have this one:

—————–
A
third double-blind randomized study gave science
faculty at research-intensive universities application
materials of a fictitious student randomly assigned a
male or female name, and found that both male and
female faculty rated the male applicant as significantly
more competent and hirable than the female with
identical application materials (Moss-Racusin, Dovidio,
Brescoll, Graham & Handelsman, 2012)
—————–

^ What’s interesting is that the study they are referencing actually explains it’s own findings – and it has nothing to do with discrimination.

http://www.pnas.org/content/111/12/4403.full <– go ahead and read it yourself.

—– —–
However, from their first year in college, women are much less likely than men to choose a STEM major. College-graduate men outnumber women in nearly every science and engineering field (1).
—– —–

– and –

—– —–
In a controversial speech, Larry Summers (3), then President of Harvard University, advanced three hypotheses for this underrepresentation of women in science: different innate aptitudes among men and women at the high end of science-based fields; different career-related preferences among men and women; and discrimination. Although there is mounting evidence against the aptitude-based hypothesis (4⇓–6), it is difficult to show the existence of discrimination if we allow for the possibility of a sex difference in preference;
—– —–

^ One more time on those last 3 words, so that it sinks in:

—– —–
** difference **

** in **

** preference **
—– —–

When I tell you that there has NEVER BEEN A SINGLE PAPER PUBLISHED demonstrating a link between discrimination and the wage gap, I really do mean it. And if you’d like, I’ll even create a special 4th Wavers post where I will go through each and every individual study referenced on that link and show you, in step-by-step fashion, exactly how none of them provide any evidence that women are kept out of STEM fields due to discrimination.

It will be helpful the next time someone brings this up, and once again I can just drop a link into the discussion. As always they’ll resort to attacking-the-source fallacy with “just a blog” – and of course we’ll go through the exact same motions as we’ve gone through here. But at least the matter will finally be settled.

Haley Renae
Haley Renae Are you reading what you type? Willful ignorance isn’t very becoming. By the by, where did you get your male privilege. Remember i said i don’t ignore people for disagreeing with me, but i do get rid of assholes. Your holier than though condescending bullshit can kiss my ass

===================================

^ Well, darn.  Somehow as a woman, I managed to pick up male privilege?  I guess disagreeing with her is fine, as long as you eventually lose the discussion that follows.  If not, you’re “holier than though”.  I’m sure she meant “thou”, but was in too much of a rush to reach for that block button.  Probably triggered.