When They Just Can’t Win, Part 4: Some People Never Learn

She’s BAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaack!  Lilandra Ra, wife of the famous youtube atheist AronRa (both of whom have debated me before, and ended up resorting to massive censorship to protect their 3rd Waver Faith), decided to take another stab at defending the 3rd Wave faith, this time on someone else’s wall.

And after getting smacked with some basic logic, she decided once again that censorship was the only reasonable option.  See, I told you guys – save your threads each time you post!  This is what 3rd Wavers do anytime you present them with facts or evidence.

Enjoy!

—————————————————–

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/rabble-rouser/201512/when-is-feminist-not-feminist [[Original post, shared by my good friend Peter Boghossian ]]

Athena Brown

Athena Brown Disregard if you’ve seen it already

https://4thwavers.wordpress.com/2014/08/15/what-is-feminism/

It’s better if we define our terms right from the start. Yes, I know there are lots of different flavors of feminism……
Tia Price
Tia Price If you think men and women deserve to be equal you’re a feminist
Jonathan Sophrosyne
Jonathan Sophrosyne Feminism IS egalitarianism/humanism, just with a more immediate focus on women’s issues.
Like · Reply · 1 · 1 hr
Lilandra Ra

Lilandra Ra I can’t think of one person who chooses to define themselves as an egalitarian and rubbishes the word feminism that does anything to further women’s equality. Most people who engage in this semantic argument over what people should call themselves don’t do anything other than criticize feminism.

OTOH there are self identified feminists all over the world fighting for women’s equality There is no shame in being specific on what you are working on. Just as working on racial justice does not equal advocating for racial supremacy. Equality never equals supremacy.

Like · Reply · 2 · 1 hr · Edited
Hide 18 Replies
Lucas Urdiales Moreira
Lucas Urdiales Moreira So if semantics aren’t an issue. Why do feminists have an issue with just being egalitarians?
Like · Reply · 1 · 1 hr
Lilandra Ra
Lilandra Ra Lucas Urdiales Moreira Why do atheists have an issue with just being called agnostics? Specificity.
Athena Brown

Athena Brown Actually, both the original article, and the link I posted, make a pretty solid case against 3rd Wave Feminism. The OP favors egalitarianism, while I’ve made the case for 4th Wave feminism.

Both of these movements do plenty to further equality for women more so than 3rd Wave.

Lilandra Ra
Lilandra Ra Athena Brown Name one prominent egalitarian who rubbishes the word feminism that does anything to further women’s equality rather than just than just criticizing feminism.
Athena Brown

Athena Brown Christina Hoff Sommers and Catherine Hakim come to mind. There’s a number of youtubers I could also find if you wanted a few more examples.

Might I remind you Lilandra, that the last time we engaged in this sort of exchange, you an Aron had to ban me from your FB wall because you could not hold up in a debate on this subject.

In case you forgot, the exchange can be seen here: https://4thwavers.wordpress.com/2015/07/12/aronra-and-the-religion-of-third-wave-feminism-part-2/

Remember that?

You’re always welcomed to try again. Why don’t you start with actually addressing the things said in the original article, or in my article, and explain exactly why it’s wrong.

Jonathan M. Weiss
Jonathan M. Weiss Lilandra Ra: the difference between an “atheist” and an honest “agnostic” is the difference between 0 and .000000000000…[keep writing zeroes at super computer speed for 13 billion years]]….00001. Is that the difference between a “feminist” and an “egalitarian” that small, typically? The difference between an atheist and a bullshit agnostic (wearing a cheap suit) is much bigger.
Per Baasch Jørgensen
Per Baasch Jørgensen But if semantics aren’t an issue. Why DO feminists have an issue with just being egalitarians?
Lilandra Ra
Lilandra Ra Per Baasch Jørgensen Quote me where I said semantics are not an issue.
Lilandra Ra
Lilandra Ra Jonathan M. Weiss You are special pleading. Atheists call themselves atheists because they have no god beliefs. So agnostics who try to tell them what to call themselves are simply playing word games. Feminists call themselves feminists because they are advocating equal rights for women. They don’t need to be told what to call themselves as there is nothing wrong with focusing on women’s equality.
Like · Reply · 1 · 35 mins
Per Baasch Jørgensen

Per Baasch Jørgensen “Most people who engage in this semantic argument over what people should call themselves don’t do anything other than criticize feminism.”

So I was just wondering if you had any other reason than the rather unspecified “specificity”. I never see anybody give actual reasons, so I was hoping you could and would elaborate.

Per Baasch Jørgensen
Per Baasch Jørgensen Oh, you got there with Jonathan, fair enough.
Miles Ward
Miles Ward The atheist / agnostic definition is easy.
I am surprised it was conflated.
Atheist – No belief in gods
Agnostic – do not believe there is knowledge to be found on a subject.
You can be an agnostic atheist – the most common,
You can also be an agnostic christian,
simple.
But if you don’t believe in gods you are not ‘agnostic’ – you are atheist.
Again simple.
irrelevant as an analogy concerning feminism?
Lilandra Ra

Lilandra Ra Athena Brown You are projecting [[dear lord, do they ever get tired of using that word?  Go back and see the first debate and you’ll see what I mean]] you have shown a repeated unwillingness to even let other people help you unpack why you are wrong. You were blocked for repeatedly spamming Aron’s FB and insulting him.

I asked you for an example of an egalitarian who rubbishes the word feminist, who does anything any activism for women’s rights rather than simply criticizing feminism.

You uncritically cite Christina Hoff Sommers a paid anti-feminist shill for the American Enterprise Institute. AEI also has employed other conservative demagogues like Newt Gingrich. So her entire career has been built on supplying incurious people with spam.

This is an example of her so called egalitarianism:

“There are a lot of homely women in women’s studies,” Christina Hoff Sommers, a professor at Clark University in Massachusetts, is quoted as saying. “Preaching these anti-male, anti-sex sermons is a way for them to compensate for various heartaches — they’re just mad at the beautiful girls.” http://www.nytimes.com/1994/01/19/opinion/public-private-and-now-babe-feminism.html

There I did some of your homework. But you will not acknowledge that you made my point for me and will simply keep spamming the same corrupted memes, and call it debate just like a creationist.

Athena Brown
Athena Brown [[And here’s where the exchange really takes off, if you’re wanting to skip right to it.]]
>> You were blocked for repeatedly spamming Aron’s FB and insulting him.^^^ Yea, no – you can actually read the entire exchange on the link I provided. There’s no need to make up reasons about what happened. It’s all right there, freely available.>> You uncritically cite Christina Hoff Sommers a paid anti-feminist shill for the American Enterprise Institute.

^^^ Well of course. I’m sure no matter who I cited, rather than explain why they’re wrong, you could just call them names.

>> AEI also has employed other conservative demagogues like Newt Gingrich

^^^ It wouldn’t matter if Hitler, Poll Pot, and Satan himself were on their payroll. That wouldn’t make what they say wrong – a point your husband very routinely makes when arguing with creationist.

>> But you will not acknowledge that you made my point for me and will simply keep spamming the same corrupted memes

^^^ ……….. I’ve spammed memes?

(‘-‘ ) ( ‘-‘)

Where??

Anyway, I’ve noticed that you missed Catherine Hikam. Guess you don’t have any readily available name calling for her.

I also mentioned youtubers. Here you go:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GGwfGSHJCY

Here’s another

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNErQFmOwq0

And then of course there’s this guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbpCKC5dCPo

So, do you have name calling ready for all of them?

Miles Ward
Miles Ward Unfortunately modern feminism has become toxic and biased as an ideology.
Humanism / egalitarianism has not.
There are extreme ‘feminzi’ identity politics fascists who are very vocal and spread hate. IE; kill all men, I bathe in male tears, etc, banning white men from college meetings, whining about cultural appropriation bullshit.
There are no equivalent toxic cults of ‘humanism’ polluting what humanism stands for.
That is the difference.
Most people will NOT identify as feminist – FACT.
Only 18% of Americans, 8% of British.
But when asked if they believe in equality of opportunity for all – they all agree.
So – There is definitely a bad smell and something rotten with modern feminism – or there would be no difference in popularity.
I have seen the examples of hatred and fascist identity politics, first world moaning about ‘manspreading’. ‘shirtgate’, fake wage gap, fake fearmongering about rape epidemics and all the other bullshit minutiae not worth bothering with – Whilst most modern feminist activists say nothing about muslims raping & assaulting German women on mass?
Funny that.
But true.
Lilandra Ra
Lilandra Ra Athena Brown I noticed that you didn’t acknowledge that you proved my point by citing Sommers uncritically. You won’t because you put promoting a corrupted meme like a broken record over the truth. You do your own work and research the people you uncritically cite. I am done wasting time with you. You are just like a creationist demanding a transitional fossil and when shown one demands another one without acknowledging they are wrong.
Athena Brown

Athena Brown >> I noticed that you didn’t acknowledge that you proved my point by citing Sommers uncritically.

^^^ Yea, because you didn’t prove your point. Christina is an accomplished speaker who has written books, given dozens of lectures, and routinely makes videos on the topic of feminism.

You called her names and cited one quote from her. This does not prove anything.

>> You won’t because you put promoting a corrupted meme

^^^ Meme.

You keep using that word. I don’t think it means what you think it means.jpg

>> You do your own work and research the people you uncritically cite.

^^^ Actually sweety, I published a peer reviewed book on the Feminist Theory, and founded the official 4th Wavers website. I think this now officially counts as “woman’splaining”.

>> You are just like a creationist demanding a transitional fossil

^^^ Excuse me, but I haven’t demanded anything during this entire exchange.

You asked me for examples of egalitarians who denounce 3rd Wave Feminism who have benefited other women. So far I’ve given you 5 such examples – you took one of them, called her names, and now you’re hightailing it out of here. Don’t blame ya though.

Have fun in your safe space echo chamber.

Like · Reply · 1 · 5 mins
Athena Brown
Athena Brown Folks reading this can probably pick up on why she had me banned from Aron’s wall.
Like · Reply · 1 · 3 mins
Athena Brown
Write a reply…

=======================================================

Came back a few hours later and *poof*!  She disappeared.

Gotta stop doing this, Ra.  You’re welcome to engage me anytime, day or night, on facebook or on 4th wavers – or anywhere else for that matter.  Just know that I’m bringing facts and evidence to the table, the same way you do with creationists, so you might want to take your own advice and do some research first.

Advertisements

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s