When They Just Can’t Win, Part 4: Some People Never Learn

She’s BAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaack!  Lilandra Ra, wife of the famous youtube atheist AronRa (both of whom have debated me before, and ended up resorting to massive censorship to protect their 3rd Waver Faith), decided to take another stab at defending the 3rd Wave faith, this time on someone else’s wall.

And after getting smacked with some basic logic, she decided once again that censorship was the only reasonable option.  See, I told you guys – save your threads each time you post!  This is what 3rd Wavers do anytime you present them with facts or evidence.

Enjoy!

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https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/rabble-rouser/201512/when-is-feminist-not-feminist [[Original post, shared by my good friend Peter Boghossian ]]

Athena Brown

Athena Brown Disregard if you’ve seen it already

https://4thwavers.wordpress.com/2014/08/15/what-is-feminism/

It’s better if we define our terms right from the start. Yes, I know there are lots of different flavors of feminism……
Tia Price
Tia Price If you think men and women deserve to be equal you’re a feminist
Jonathan Sophrosyne
Jonathan Sophrosyne Feminism IS egalitarianism/humanism, just with a more immediate focus on women’s issues.
Like · Reply · 1 · 1 hr
Lilandra Ra

Lilandra Ra I can’t think of one person who chooses to define themselves as an egalitarian and rubbishes the word feminism that does anything to further women’s equality. Most people who engage in this semantic argument over what people should call themselves don’t do anything other than criticize feminism.

OTOH there are self identified feminists all over the world fighting for women’s equality There is no shame in being specific on what you are working on. Just as working on racial justice does not equal advocating for racial supremacy. Equality never equals supremacy.

Like · Reply · 2 · 1 hr · Edited
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Lucas Urdiales Moreira
Lucas Urdiales Moreira So if semantics aren’t an issue. Why do feminists have an issue with just being egalitarians?
Like · Reply · 1 · 1 hr
Lilandra Ra
Lilandra Ra Lucas Urdiales Moreira Why do atheists have an issue with just being called agnostics? Specificity.
Athena Brown

Athena Brown Actually, both the original article, and the link I posted, make a pretty solid case against 3rd Wave Feminism. The OP favors egalitarianism, while I’ve made the case for 4th Wave feminism.

Both of these movements do plenty to further equality for women more so than 3rd Wave.

Lilandra Ra
Lilandra Ra Athena Brown Name one prominent egalitarian who rubbishes the word feminism that does anything to further women’s equality rather than just than just criticizing feminism.
Athena Brown

Athena Brown Christina Hoff Sommers and Catherine Hakim come to mind. There’s a number of youtubers I could also find if you wanted a few more examples.

Might I remind you Lilandra, that the last time we engaged in this sort of exchange, you an Aron had to ban me from your FB wall because you could not hold up in a debate on this subject.

In case you forgot, the exchange can be seen here: https://4thwavers.wordpress.com/2015/07/12/aronra-and-the-religion-of-third-wave-feminism-part-2/

Remember that?

You’re always welcomed to try again. Why don’t you start with actually addressing the things said in the original article, or in my article, and explain exactly why it’s wrong.

Jonathan M. Weiss
Jonathan M. Weiss Lilandra Ra: the difference between an “atheist” and an honest “agnostic” is the difference between 0 and .000000000000…[keep writing zeroes at super computer speed for 13 billion years]]….00001. Is that the difference between a “feminist” and an “egalitarian” that small, typically? The difference between an atheist and a bullshit agnostic (wearing a cheap suit) is much bigger.
Per Baasch Jørgensen
Per Baasch Jørgensen But if semantics aren’t an issue. Why DO feminists have an issue with just being egalitarians?
Lilandra Ra
Lilandra Ra Per Baasch Jørgensen Quote me where I said semantics are not an issue.
Lilandra Ra
Lilandra Ra Jonathan M. Weiss You are special pleading. Atheists call themselves atheists because they have no god beliefs. So agnostics who try to tell them what to call themselves are simply playing word games. Feminists call themselves feminists because they are advocating equal rights for women. They don’t need to be told what to call themselves as there is nothing wrong with focusing on women’s equality.
Like · Reply · 1 · 35 mins
Per Baasch Jørgensen

Per Baasch Jørgensen “Most people who engage in this semantic argument over what people should call themselves don’t do anything other than criticize feminism.”

So I was just wondering if you had any other reason than the rather unspecified “specificity”. I never see anybody give actual reasons, so I was hoping you could and would elaborate.

Per Baasch Jørgensen
Per Baasch Jørgensen Oh, you got there with Jonathan, fair enough.
Miles Ward
Miles Ward The atheist / agnostic definition is easy.
I am surprised it was conflated.
Atheist – No belief in gods
Agnostic – do not believe there is knowledge to be found on a subject.
You can be an agnostic atheist – the most common,
You can also be an agnostic christian,
simple.
But if you don’t believe in gods you are not ‘agnostic’ – you are atheist.
Again simple.
irrelevant as an analogy concerning feminism?
Lilandra Ra

Lilandra Ra Athena Brown You are projecting [[dear lord, do they ever get tired of using that word?  Go back and see the first debate and you’ll see what I mean]] you have shown a repeated unwillingness to even let other people help you unpack why you are wrong. You were blocked for repeatedly spamming Aron’s FB and insulting him.

I asked you for an example of an egalitarian who rubbishes the word feminist, who does anything any activism for women’s rights rather than simply criticizing feminism.

You uncritically cite Christina Hoff Sommers a paid anti-feminist shill for the American Enterprise Institute. AEI also has employed other conservative demagogues like Newt Gingrich. So her entire career has been built on supplying incurious people with spam.

This is an example of her so called egalitarianism:

“There are a lot of homely women in women’s studies,” Christina Hoff Sommers, a professor at Clark University in Massachusetts, is quoted as saying. “Preaching these anti-male, anti-sex sermons is a way for them to compensate for various heartaches — they’re just mad at the beautiful girls.” http://www.nytimes.com/1994/01/19/opinion/public-private-and-now-babe-feminism.html

There I did some of your homework. But you will not acknowledge that you made my point for me and will simply keep spamming the same corrupted memes, and call it debate just like a creationist.

Athena Brown
Athena Brown [[And here’s where the exchange really takes off, if you’re wanting to skip right to it.]]
>> You were blocked for repeatedly spamming Aron’s FB and insulting him.^^^ Yea, no – you can actually read the entire exchange on the link I provided. There’s no need to make up reasons about what happened. It’s all right there, freely available.>> You uncritically cite Christina Hoff Sommers a paid anti-feminist shill for the American Enterprise Institute.

^^^ Well of course. I’m sure no matter who I cited, rather than explain why they’re wrong, you could just call them names.

>> AEI also has employed other conservative demagogues like Newt Gingrich

^^^ It wouldn’t matter if Hitler, Poll Pot, and Satan himself were on their payroll. That wouldn’t make what they say wrong – a point your husband very routinely makes when arguing with creationist.

>> But you will not acknowledge that you made my point for me and will simply keep spamming the same corrupted memes

^^^ ……….. I’ve spammed memes?

(‘-‘ ) ( ‘-‘)

Where??

Anyway, I’ve noticed that you missed Catherine Hikam. Guess you don’t have any readily available name calling for her.

I also mentioned youtubers. Here you go:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GGwfGSHJCY

Here’s another

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNErQFmOwq0

And then of course there’s this guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbpCKC5dCPo

So, do you have name calling ready for all of them?

Miles Ward
Miles Ward Unfortunately modern feminism has become toxic and biased as an ideology.
Humanism / egalitarianism has not.
There are extreme ‘feminzi’ identity politics fascists who are very vocal and spread hate. IE; kill all men, I bathe in male tears, etc, banning white men from college meetings, whining about cultural appropriation bullshit.
There are no equivalent toxic cults of ‘humanism’ polluting what humanism stands for.
That is the difference.
Most people will NOT identify as feminist – FACT.
Only 18% of Americans, 8% of British.
But when asked if they believe in equality of opportunity for all – they all agree.
So – There is definitely a bad smell and something rotten with modern feminism – or there would be no difference in popularity.
I have seen the examples of hatred and fascist identity politics, first world moaning about ‘manspreading’. ‘shirtgate’, fake wage gap, fake fearmongering about rape epidemics and all the other bullshit minutiae not worth bothering with – Whilst most modern feminist activists say nothing about muslims raping & assaulting German women on mass?
Funny that.
But true.
Lilandra Ra
Lilandra Ra Athena Brown I noticed that you didn’t acknowledge that you proved my point by citing Sommers uncritically. You won’t because you put promoting a corrupted meme like a broken record over the truth. You do your own work and research the people you uncritically cite. I am done wasting time with you. You are just like a creationist demanding a transitional fossil and when shown one demands another one without acknowledging they are wrong.
Athena Brown

Athena Brown >> I noticed that you didn’t acknowledge that you proved my point by citing Sommers uncritically.

^^^ Yea, because you didn’t prove your point. Christina is an accomplished speaker who has written books, given dozens of lectures, and routinely makes videos on the topic of feminism.

You called her names and cited one quote from her. This does not prove anything.

>> You won’t because you put promoting a corrupted meme

^^^ Meme.

You keep using that word. I don’t think it means what you think it means.jpg

>> You do your own work and research the people you uncritically cite.

^^^ Actually sweety, I published a peer reviewed book on the Feminist Theory, and founded the official 4th Wavers website. I think this now officially counts as “woman’splaining”.

>> You are just like a creationist demanding a transitional fossil

^^^ Excuse me, but I haven’t demanded anything during this entire exchange.

You asked me for examples of egalitarians who denounce 3rd Wave Feminism who have benefited other women. So far I’ve given you 5 such examples – you took one of them, called her names, and now you’re hightailing it out of here. Don’t blame ya though.

Have fun in your safe space echo chamber.

Like · Reply · 1 · 5 mins
Athena Brown
Athena Brown Folks reading this can probably pick up on why she had me banned from Aron’s wall.
Like · Reply · 1 · 3 mins
Athena Brown
Write a reply…

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Came back a few hours later and *poof*!  She disappeared.

Gotta stop doing this, Ra.  You’re welcome to engage me anytime, day or night, on facebook or on 4th wavers – or anywhere else for that matter.  Just know that I’m bringing facts and evidence to the table, the same way you do with creationists, so you might want to take your own advice and do some research first.

Looking Back

Hey everyone!

This is to let everyone know that I’ll be taken an extended break from making new content, and to explain how all this got started.  This site has come an extremely long way from a year and a half ago, when I first started by writing a response to the male privilege checklist.  But this project actually began well before that.

As I said in the comments section of another post, this project began shortly after I transitioned a little over 2 years ago.  I was getting told all sorts of bizarre things about what life would be like as a woman – mostly from other women. I was told that men were going to “objectify me”, that I had to be careful when I went out at night, that I’d be earning less than men, and all the usual jazz I’m sure you’re familiar with. I was prepared to face these challenges as a woman, as I wanted to be treated just like any other woman… but they never came. Men never “objectified” me. They were certainly attracted to me! They were always so nice, and asked me out frequently – usually working up the courage first, and being all nervous when they finally did… so I started to think, who gets nervous talking to an object?  Who works up the courage to ask a household object out on a date?? This didn’t make any sense.  Also, my paychecks started going *up*, not down.

I started reading about some of these things, and wrote some of my preliminary ideas in an email to another trans friend.  That just opened up the flood gates, because the exchange quickly went south. Very soon after the discussion began, I was suddenly a “rape apologist”, and being brainwashed by this “patriarchy”. That exchange nearly ended a 20 year friendship with this person, and at that point, I was determined to learn all I could, and write an email back responding to all these points.  I still wasn’t sure what patriarchy even was – but I knew I wasn’t brainwashed, I knew I didn’t walk around being oppressed everywhere, and I certainly knew I wasn’t a rape apologist.

The other day, I was reading through some of the very earliest notes I took when I first began studying all this.  I put these notes up for peer review – beginning with my friend of over 20 years – and I got stomped pretty hard in the debate that followed.

But that was a good thing.  I found out where I was wrong, looked again at things I couldn’t answer, and studied more on the areas where I was lacking.

I began taking notes again, and researched further to better understand key terms, and see how they logically fit together.  I wanted to fully explore all the arguments put forth by every side, and went through the trouble of reading the original studies anytime they were cited.  During this time I visited a lot of Third Waver sites, and still didn’t know that there was, in fact, a clear division between the different waves of feminism.  Several months later, I put these notes up for review again, and was soundly whooped again – though this time not as bad.

So I went back to reviewing and researching.  This time I went so far as to start studying ancient civilizations and archaeology… a subject I never had any interest in.  But I seriously wanted the last and final answer in the question for how, when, where, and why this whole “patriarchy” thing got started, because that seemed to be the cornerstone for all Third Waver theory.  I wanted to know at precisely what point a caveman hit a cavewoman over the head with a club and dragged her back to his cave, and then turned that into a system of government.  I wanted to know exactly when it was decided that women were worthless, and forever relegated to scrubbing things – until just recently, when, through centuries of unrelenting hard work, they FINALLY taught those big bad men to stop beating them and treat them like people, all thanks to feminism.

I also wanted to learn about male privilege.  I spent 30 years as a male and was homeless during most of that time.  I faced going hungry over and over again.  I frequently worked 2 or more jobs just to have enough to eat while studying science in a parking lot, hoping to educate myself into something that would lead to me being housed.  I kept myself healthy by never using drugs, drinking, or smoking, and stayed in shape doing pull ups off street signs and pushups with my packs on.  I became suicidal more than once.  And this all changed the day I became a woman.  Suddenly I had housing.  I had people giving me things, and treating me immeasurably better.  So I really was curious about that privilege I was supposedly having!  And that I now do not have.

Finally I also noticed that no one ever tried to rape me.  Like, ever.  According to 3rd Wavers, we have to teach men not to rape, implying that they literally don’t know that rape is bad.  1 in 5 women get raped or assaulted!  Yet over the last 2 years and 27 days, I’ve walked all over Portland, at all times of day and often in the middle of the night.  I’d walk from the Northwest side over near Transition Projects, and walk all the way back home, across Burnside bridge and towards North Portland.  It’s just over 3 miles.  I’d often do that in the middle of the night – between 10pm and 2am.  Never raped.  Never assaulted.  Not even once.  And I could do that over and over and over again and still never be harmed.

Men never “catcalled” me either – until the 10 Hour Walk through New York video showed me that “catcalling”, literally, means saying things like “hello” and “god bless you”.

So this resulted in one final email that I was going to write back to my friend.  I was going to research the living hell out of every aspect of feminist theory, tracking down every study I could find and read every one of them front to back, and I would spend 6 or more hours a day doing this for months at a time.  The email grew larger and larger.  Finally I decided to put it in an MS Word doc.  Then *that* became larger and larger!  Then I sent it off to multiple people across the internets for peer review – and this included every 3rd Waver I could find who was willing to review it (even had an interesting exchange with AronRa when I included him in the review process – but that’s another story).  Only when I was absolutely positive each section was backed by evidence, and had reviewed all the counter evidence, and that the material could survive the maximum level of scrutiny, did I finally send it to my friend.  An entire book written for this one person.

…….. and they only read it half way.  Once they got to the chapter where feminist theory was discussed, they went only a few pages in, then stopped.  They also completely quit talking to me about feminist theory.  I never again heard how the “friend zone” means men think they’re entitled to sex, or anything about objectification.  I’d later see the same thing happen anytime I talked with 3rd Wavers online.

I started transferring the chapters of my book onto 4th Wavers as a means of making the information completely free for everyone.  I never intended on selling the book.  It was originally meant for that one person anyway, but I had put so much time and effort into the research, and I felt that these subjects were important for the ongoing public discussion surrounding feminist theory, so I wanted others to have access, and I didn’t want to hold any of it behind a paywall.

To push the peer review process even further, I would upload a chapter (which always provided a chance to improve it again a little before it was published online), then post the links to relevant topics on 3rd Wave Feminist boards.  Again and again, 3rd Wavers would start popping off in their typical angry fashion, accusing me of the usual routine (MRA / misogynist / rape apologist / etc), but were never able to answer any of the things I wrote.  The material always survived scrutiny, and half the time they wouldn’t even click the link, as they couldn’t bare to have their narrative challenged.  That’s when I started to realize that this was a faith based movement I was dealing with.  Not only do they lack any actual evidence, they behave just like young earth creationist when you challenge religion.  They never respond to the content in what I posted, and often have to resort to deleting comments or banning me from the forums.  I posted a few links on Upworthy’s facebook page a few times, and they’ve since started moderating the comments.  Still no actual challenges to any of the materials.

I kept publishing new articles over the next year, sometimes from my book, and sometimes new content in response to what I found online.  I did this until just recently, when I found that I had covered virtually every 3rd Waver argument.  It was at that point, that I made a compilation page, which you can see here: https://4thwavers.wordpress.com/2016/01/26/how-to-answer-3rd-wave-feminist-arguments/ .  It had become so common to just pick the appropriate link, drop it into the conversation, and watch the discussion shut down, that I made this list so others can do it too.

And with that, nearly all the contents of the book I had written are now uploaded – much of it has been improved to better fit a webpage, and now functions better as an airtight response to any common 3rd Wave argument you might find.

The final and last post I had been working on was how to distinguish between science and narratives – a major part of my book that still wasn’t uploaded.  However, you can now find that part here: https://4thwavers.wordpress.com/2015/11/24/science-vs-story-telling-how-do-you-know-whats-actually-real/ .

At this point, I won’t be sending out copies of the book anymore.  Sorry, but most of the information can now be found on 4th Wavers, plus it’s actually better written here than it is in the book.  The site works as kind of a “second edition”.  I might still come back on occasion and write another article, but I will usually only do this if people ask.  If you have some ideas for an article you’d like to see made, leave it in the comments section and if it gets enough likes, I’ll go to work on it.

For now, I feel like this is a extremely major chapter, that’s finally complete.

Thanks everyone for your support!

Samus Aran waving bye