When They Just Can’t Win, Part 3: Patriarchy Debate

This site is still on hiatus for the time being, but I just finished a rather one-sided win against someone who claimed to be a “Gender Studies Professor”, who opened the debate with the promise to school me something awful on how patriarchy really does exist in the US.

During the entire debate, she was never able once to offer up even one iota of evidence regarding her claim, and it pretty much went downhill for her from the very start.

As I always do when I debate 3rd Wavers, I save the threads, in case the other party feels there’s no other choice but to resort to censorship (which is extremely common with this group).  Below is the debate.

Enjoy!

[Update: did you know that when someone blocks you, and you’ve had a debate on a thread they started, that the entire thread disappears and it looks like they deleted it?  … neither did I.  Oh well!  😛 ]

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Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm
Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm Athena, as a professor of gender and sexuality, and a quick scan of your page I gather you are transgender, which comes with a different set of issues. However, by denying patriarchy and entering the ranks of womanhood you will eventually feel the sting of a patriarchal society. If you want to be embraced by the women who should support you, you need to understand the issues we face. (It is the fact that many trans women do not understand the struggle of cicsgendered women that is dividing many feminist women’s organizations. Now you can spout a bunch of long winded examples why you think patriarchy doesn’t exist, but it does. You grew up male so you weren’t as impacted by that particular dynamic. (Not that you didn’t have your own dynamics to deal with.) However you are still viewing it with a male gaze. See how the Trans community looks down on Caitlyn Jenner for her views on life and sexuality and pretty much every political issue….honey- don’t be a Caitlyn.
Hide 36 Replies
Sare Kumagai
Sare Kumagai Finally, someone said the right things to Anthea.
Neža Vižintin
Neža Vižintin Now she will ask for examples so she can try and dissmantle them.
Athena Brown

Athena Brown >> However, by denying patriarchy and entering the ranks of womanhood you will eventually feel the sting of a patriarchal society.

^^^ Okay! Since you’re a professor, I’m sure you will have *NO PROBLEM* answering all the stuff I posted above! So lets hear it. How do you explain any of that if patriarchy were real?

And further, since you’re a professor of gender studies, I’m positive you must know how facts, evidence, and proof works in the scientific field. So please, do provide evidence for your claims. If patriarchy is real

1) How do you explain all the observations from above, and

2) Where is your evidence that it exists?

I love that we got a real live professor in here, so for sure we can expect to see something besides name calling this time, right?

>> If you want to be embraced by the women who should support you, you need to understand the issues we face.

^^^ Well first, I do understand the issues. And second, I am embraced and supported by plenty of close personal friends.

>> Now you can spout a bunch of long winded examples why you think patriarchy doesn’t exist, but it does.

^^^ A claim presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. You’re the one making the positive assertion, so the burden of proof lies in your court.

I look forward to your response.

>> You grew up male so you weren’t as impacted by that particular dynamic.

^^^ You don’t know anything about me. So how in the world do you know what dynamics I was impacted by?

Further, what happened in the past is the past. I was male then, but I’m female now. So explain how this dynamic is different for me *now*, since I’m a woman now, and that’s what’s relevant.

>> However you are still viewing it with a male gaze.

^^^ That’s not what male gaze means.

https://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/…/faq-what-is…/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_gaze

…. you’re a professor, so surely you simply mis-spoke.

Waiting to see evidence for your claims!

Before talking about the male gaze, it is first important to introduce its parent concept: the…
Robert Krupka
Robert Krupka Many transgendered individuals are really tired of Feminism attempting to speak for them and don’t feel that Patriarchy theory does an adequate job of explaining their experience, and given their perspective from both sides, it’s quite valuable, even if it doesn’t support Feminism. Blair White and Theryn Meyer on Youtube are good examples.
Athena Brown

Athena Brown >> Now she will ask for examples so she can try and dissmantle them.

^^^ This bud’s for you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic_burden_of_proof

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_burden_of_proof

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/burden_of_proof

In epistemology, the burden of proof (Latin: onus probandi) is the obligation on a party in a dispute to provide sufficient warrant for their position.
Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm
Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm Athena, sign up for my classes I will share my wisdom. No, I do not have the inclination to educate the uneducated for free. I get paid a lot of money to answer those questions. I dont work for free. I know my worth, and the realities of patriarchal society.
But if you want a reading list I can provide that. Would you prefer a world history list or just US?
I will give you the first patriarchy lesson in my Early World History class. Beginning with sedentary farming and early civilizations, when women lost control of the food supply (they were the gatherers men were the hunters) they became valued for only their reproductive capabilities. This is the beginnings of patriarchy. Over and over we see in history how we, as a civilization, become farther from the hunter gatherer roots, we see women lose power/authority. This is what archeology, and the written record has told us, examples being the Hebrews, Egyptians, Mesopotamians, Indus River Valley People, Greeks, Arabic Nomads, Some Native American tribes, there are more but I have a migraine.
A good place to start, would be Gerda Lerner.Oh and for future reference, when dealing with any academic, never use Wikipedia or any other open source- like wordpress- it is dismissed immediately. Cornell was a good cite- but really- wikipedia? My students quickly get the idea as the footer of my syllabus clearly and boldly states: Wikipedia is never a source! So, didn’t even go there.To directly clarify a couple of things, when speaking about the women who SHOULD support you I was not addressing your personal friends. I am sure you have a great support system and wonderful caring friends. I was instead speaking to the larger group of women as a whole. We historically tend to group up and divide. Especially within the modern feminist movements. NOW and other feminist organisations should be embracing (and possibly educating both ways) trans women. Instead we are looking at them rather suspect. (The enemy crossing over comes to mind although men have never been my enemy- ok honestly just the one I am married to for 20 years and that’s only sometimes. smile emoticon What I am saying though is that we cisgendered women need to support trans women’s needs and rights, not minimize, trivialize, or ignore. But in order to do that, we must fight for true gender equality. (Eliminate the patriarchial structure you seem to disbelieve.) To see examples of inequality Look at the AAUW study on girls and STEM I can’t remember the years, again pleading the migraine and the meds are kicking in. Look at the documentary Misrepresentation. (Ok the first few minutes on eating disorders are not my baliwick, but it gets very interesting when it looks at media and politics.) Or look at any of the Killing us Softly videos (I think that is what it is called- on YouTube, 4 is the most recent I believe. Those are just a few off the top of my very pained head.You say what happened in the past is the past, but I argue regularly in my classes that the past shapes the present. You were male then, you are female now. You were likely socialized male. (I am making assumptions, I know I socialized my daughters a bit differently too and neither are what you would call traditional.)So maybe you had exceptional parents who held no preconcieved gender constructs when raising you, and I am wrong. Hell maybe you were that kid raised by wolves I don’t know you are right. But I can make an educated guess that you were socialized male and that did impact you this hetero normative culture that we have in the US. That means you changed more than just your style of shoes when you transitioned, you also had to go through (or are going through ) a change in how you perceive the world. While I personally see this as a strength, and the Native Americans of the past saw being trans as blessed state btw, I also believe that this strength came from a place of great inner turmoil since you likely grew up in a gender binary. Your past created the strong opinionated woman you are today. (Thats according to Locke if you want to know my source.) If you want to argue early modern philosophy and childrearing theories we can Do that tomorrow night the pills are really kicking in. Goodnight Athena. I think you actually can youtube some wierd lady reading Lerner Invention of Patriarchy….Debating on torturing my online students with it next semester. smile emoticon

Daniel Richard Dempster
Daniel Richard Dempster I believe Gwendollyn just got shrecked and is backing off “I do not have the inclination to educate the uneducated for free” translates roughly to “oh shit…. i got to get out of this before i get shrecked even worse”
Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm
Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm Actually, I believe that was “I really don’t have time for a lot of bullshit.” I gentle my tone because I don’t think some feminists are giving the Trans community a fair shake. Then, I gave her the beginnings of the proof she wanted as there is an overwhelming amount of reading/theories. I suggested the seminal piece for her to read, and started with the creation of patriarchy in the earliest societies. I am sorry, it was already a long post and I had a migraine. I also know my value. I get paid a lot of money to teach this, and I garner a lot of respect. Why should I throw it out for a bunch of trolls? I do NOT see Athena as a troll, but Daniel you are simply trying to start an argument when we are having intellectual discourse.
Athena Brown

Athena Brown >> Actually, I believe that was “I really don’t have time for a lot of bullshit.”

^^^ Oh you got time to type nearly 2 screen-widths worth of post, but you don’t have time to debate? Right – just in case this person happens to provide a rebuttal that you simply cannot respond to.

I think you rather strongly suspect that this is the direction it will probably go, so you’ve taken care to provide yourself an easy out. But hey, maybe I’m wrong. Lets test this hypothesis and see.

>> I get paid a lot of money to teach this, and I garner a lot of respect.

^^^ Say, before I get started on the real meat and potatoes here, what university do you teach at? What department?

I’m curious because of what I’m about to cover.

>> Athena, sign up for my classes I will share my wisdom.

^^^ Meanwhile, I can respond to anything you have to say right here on a public forum, completely free of charge.

>> Beginning with sedentary farming and early civilizations, when women lost control of the food supply (they were the gatherers men were the hunters) they became valued for only their reproductive capabilities. This is the beginnings of patriarchy.

^^^ This runs absolutely counter to just about everything we’ve seen in archaeology. It also kind of makes me wonder how in the hell are you a professor on this subject if you got basic history *this* wrong.

https://4thwavers.wordpress.com/…/patriarchy-theory…/ — because I’m sure Cleopatra, Queen of the Nile, lived in a “patriarchy”.

Most early human societies were Matriarchies. I’m not going to re-explain what I already said in the link though.

>> Over and over we see in history how we, as a civilization, become farther from the hunter gatherer roots, we see women lose power/authority.

^^^ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary,_Queen_of_Scots

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indira_Gandhi

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catherine_the_Great

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empress_Dowager_Cixi

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_II

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Thatcher

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eva_Per%C3%B3n

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begum_Hazrat_Mahal

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosa_Luxemburg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatshepsut

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boudica

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabella_I_of_Castile

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irene_of_Athens

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_B%C3%A1thory

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jadwiga_of_Poland

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jindeok_of_Silla

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirjana_Markovi%C4%87

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_B%C3%A1thory

Anyone still thinking of signing up for her class? Of course you could probably find that PRATT (practically refuted a thousand times) “women have been oppressed for thousands of years” narrative online without paying anything.

It’s gotta suck though when someone can use sources that are 100% free to answer every point you’ve brought up 10 times over.

>> This is what archeology, and the written record has told us, examples being the Hebrews, Egyptians, Mesopotamians, Indus River Valley People, Greeks, Arabic Nomads, Some Native American tribes, there are more but I have a migraine.

^^^ Patriarchy didn’t start in Hebrew civilization until around 400 BC, when men attempted to overthrow the Matriarchal society and establish a patralineal system of inheritance.

Egypt was ruled by women, even before and after Cleopatra.

Mesopotamians actually have a long history of Matriarchy, including stories from Elam – which were mentioned on the link I provided.

Minoan Society (Greece) actually had a very long and well established egalitarian society run and ruled by women, which some 2nd Wave Feminist tried to present as evidence that society would be a lot better if women were in charge.

……………… really, what university do you teach at? Not kidding I really want to know.

>> when speaking about the women who SHOULD support you . . . I was instead speaking to the larger group of women as a whole

^^^ I whole heartedly agree. Women are being robbed of their chance to cultivate a sense of community, and build emotionally healthy and fulfilling lives. After all…

Third Wave isn’t about hating men, they just want you to believe men earn more and get more because penis – even when more than 50 peer reviewed studies now prove that there is no connection between sexism and the wage gap. They want you to believe men control everything, and that gender norms aren’t the result of thousands of years of societal evolution, but were purposely designed that way, by men, just to make you miserable.

Third Wave isn’t about hating men, they just want you to believe that anytime a man takes notice in a woman, it’s because they see her as an object, not as a person. They want you to believe that men shouldn’t have the right to comment, or express their opinions in public, without a woman’s permission. And yet men are privileged.

Third Wave isn’t about hating men, they just want you to believe that men are okay with raping women, that nearly every woman experiences rape or attempted rape, because men are always on the verge of wanting to hurt women because that’s what men do, they’ve done it for “thousands of years”, and they’re just barely able to hold themselves back if not for the saintly grace of female victimhood.

And the ultimate result of accepting this incredibly toxic view is the complete inability to find any sense of community. You can’t build relationships with other people in the place where you live, because if a man talks to you on a bus, it’s only because he’s thinking about you in some sexually perverse way. If a man looks at you in the park, he must be staring at you with some sinister intention. If a man pulls out a chair for you, he’s insulting you and thinks you’re a child. It can’t be that white heterosexual cis-men are just being nice, because even if they are just being nice, it means they’re being a “nice-guy” and expecting sex. That’s what all men want, and it’s the only reason they’re nice, because they think about it every 7 seconds. They can’t just be normal people like everyone else.

This is how feminism was hijacked.

The goal of 4th Wavers is to take it back, and re-focus it on legitimate women’s issues – like maternity leave, birth control, or the thousands of rape kits sitting in evidence rooms (the result of a massive administrative and modernization failure, as detailed in a 2011 report from the Justice Department – sorry, no patriarchy here either).

So I absolutely agree, we should stop with the victimizing narrative, and *EMPOWER* women!

>> Look at the AAUW study on girls

^^^ I did actually. A while ago. See, the problem is that I don’t *only* read from sources that say what I already agree with. I do the work of seeking out the opposing research and criticisms, then additional work to trace down the actual facts and what actually happened, THEN reach a conclusion that goes from facts, builds to evidence, then provides proof.

And guess what. I’m not the only one who does that! Here’s another professor who took the time to answer the AAUW study.

http://www.menweb.org/kleinfed.htm

Here’s an even more thorough, point-by-point break down, if you like:

http://www.theatlantic.com/…/the-war-against-boys/304659/

Here’s a somewhat related tid-bit from another university professor. http://ideas.time.com/…/school-has-become-too-hostile…/

>> Or look at any of the Killing us Softly videos

^^^ These videos are centered around objectification. Our discussion here is about patriarchy.

But if you want – objectification runs counter to virtually everything we know in psychology (I’m also a certified mental health worker) https://4thwavers.wordpress.com/…/sexual…/ .

Athena Brown

Athena Brown >> You say what happened in the past is the past, but I argue regularly in my classes that the past shapes the present.

^^^ Okay lets return this one to the original point. You’ve given me a rather long paragraph that’s masking over that point, seemingly in an attempt to minimize it, which was:

—– —–
It is the fact that many trans women do not understand the struggle of cicsgendered women that is dividing many feminist women’s organizations
—– —–

^ This is an attempt to undermine my credibility on the issue. It also feels like a thinly veiled attack. “You’re not *really* a woman and wouldn’t understand what women have to go through”.

I asked you for some examples of “the struggle of cisgender women” that I wouldn’t understand.

Sure, the past shapes the future. Now what is it about being a woman that I, being trans, don’t get? Unless you were somehow referring to menstrual cramps.

Daniel Richard Dempster
Daniel Richard Dempster Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm translation “i got shrecked on”
Athena Brown

Athena Brown Now before I leave for the night (don’t worry I’ll be back tomorrow night) – I have to hold you to the questions I posed earlier. Now you’ve made it rather clear that you are a Gender Studies **Professor** – and with that in mind, I did say that you shouldn’t have any trouble with the following.

Here it is again.

1) How do you explain all the observations from above, and

2) Where is your evidence that it [patriarchy] exists?

In your next response, please include answers to these two. Now you’re a professor! You’ve made that abundantly clear, so I’m positive answering those two shouldn’t be hard.

Ian Lin

Ian Lin Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm : as a male I feel the sting of a matriarchal society: one that values women over men, one that gives privilege and assumption of need over men, one that decides men aren’t worthy to be fathers, one that decides any kind of financial or physical protection belongs only to women and men don’t matter.

I know across the planet there are indeed patriarchal societies but they’re not in North America or half of Europe.

Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm
Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm Equality is better in some parts of western Europe, but I have never heard we are a matriarchal society here. If you are referring to protective laws that give alimony and preferential custody…. well that is the pendulum swinging a bit too far, and will even itself out. Part of that is the backlash to patriarchy. See women are supposed to be more nurturing….this makes them better parents. So children should naturally go with mothers. It is the perpetuation of this patriarchial bs of women’s primary role being wives and mothers that allows for this crap. We know fathers can be just as nurturing and loving, caring and often better parents. But because of the patriarchial society we live in determines that women are better caretakers you lose your kids. It is a patriarchial stereotype that assumes (Generally rightly) your earning potential as a male is more than hers. It is protective legislation that grants her alimony under this assumption.
Athena Brown

Athena Brown Replied yesterday. Huh… for some reason I didn’t get the notice.

Anyway….

>> but I have never heard we are a matriarchal society here.

^^^ Now that ain’t what I said. Sure, we’re not a matriarchy here today – but that’s not what I was referring to when I said so. The US today is an equal society. Men and women are equal – there is no patriarchy.

>> If you are referring to protective laws that give alimony and preferential custody

^^^ Actually no, I never mentioned alimony or anything like that.

>> Part of that is the backlash to patriarchy.

^^^ You still got that burden of proof. What patriarchy?

>> See women are supposed to be more nurturing….this makes them better parents. So children should naturally go with mothers. It is the perpetuation of this patriarchial bs

^^^ Okay, so by patriarchal, you mean there’s a group of men somewhere deciding this? It’s a group of rich white men? They pick and choose how society will view women? Where do they meet? Who is this group comprised of?

If patriarchy were a top-down system designed and run by men, for men, where men are more valued, why would it constantly find ways to hurt men and benefit women at the expense of men?

If patriarchy were a bottom-up system organically emergent and designed by no one, which places greater value on men or on women depending on the situation and circumstance, and was constructed by the situations our species evolved through, it would make perfect sense. But then… why call it “patriarchy”?

>> It is a patriarchial stereotype that assumes (Generally rightly) your earning potential as a male is more than hers.

^^^ Now come on, you went on and on and made a big show about being a professor and all that. I expected better than this. (Though you certainly aren’t the first person to come on here proclaiming to be an expert with some credentials and had it end up this way.)

You’re going on about patriarchy without having provided any evidence, without having responded to any of the things I’ve said, and you’ve completely ignored my previous 2 questions.

Here they are again:

1) How do you explain all the observations from above,

and

2) Where is your evidence that it [patriarchy] exists?

Also, what exactly do you mean “earning potential as a male is more”? Are you seriously going to bring up the wage gap? Because here’s a whole bunch of reasons why you shouldn’t.

https://4thwavers.wordpress.com/…/the-wage-gap-myth…/

https://4thwavers.wordpress.com/…/what-if-the-wage-gap…/

Now remember that back door you created earlier just in case you found yourself in a ringer? You might wanna use that now. Say “I’m too busy” or “I got classes to teach” – or something like that if you want to bow out. I gave you a fair chance to reply.

You still haven’t told us what university you supposedly teach at, but alright, I’ll let you off the hook on that one.

If it turns out you really just can’t come up with a better response, first, I’d strongly urge you to rethink your position on this matter. 3rd Wave is an absolutely toxic faith-based movement that casts women as victims in every possible situation and robs them of their ability to build self esteem, or find a sense of community. If you really want to empower women, consider 4th Wave.

Second, yea… go ahead and bow out if you just have to. You could also choose not to reply and I won’t either, so that’s another way out if you want to take it.

(Update: thanks to some persuasive criticism from Free Thinking Atheist Females, which…
Athena Brown

Athena Brown Also I see just now Ian’s post.

So scratch what I said earlier about Matriarchy if you were replying to him. Still, most early human civilizations were indeed matriarchal.

Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm
Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm Athena,
4th wave is still forming and very intriguing, but I never claimed to be a 3rd wave feminist. I personally fall somewhere in between. Agreeing with the assertion that 2nd wave marginalized women who were not white, or of the “right” socioeconomic class. Third wave opened feminist theory up to queer theory, some of which I really think makes sense. Judith Butler comes to mind. But I also love the writings of bell hooks, Audre Lorde, and many others. If you think all of this wave does anything the same though, I think you are missing the point. The point of third wave is intersectionality. Whatever your women’s issue- it should be encompassed in 3rd wave. Women of different race/class/ability all have different experiences therefore it cannot be a unified movement. Now, can some of the third wave feminists ride that wave to victimhood- absolutely- (I see a lot of the millenials feminist or not riding that victim ride and think it is more a product of over coddling myself.) But again, that is only a portion of 3rd wavers. Just like every second wave feminist isn’t out burning her bra. (They didn’t really do that except for the press- so I am told.)
Now about your question-
I truly do no have time to dig through all the posts to find your earliest questions- mind reposting one or two and I will respond. My semester starts soon and I admit I have been lazy and have to grade finals. I actually assign essays as a final- because I am slightly masochistic. I have 250 5-7 page essays to read. Plus I help my husband with his business. So- I fb at night mostly when I am exhausted.To be quite honest I believe (as I regularly tell my students) there are as many types of feminism as there are flavors of ice cream. You have to find your flavor. I watched the third wave really get going in the 90s….now it seems there is a whole new pedagogy. Who are the theorists of 4th wave? Academia is slow (even asked my daughter at SFSU if she had heard much about it- and it really hasn’t been presented into academia much yet. Even asked colleagues at other CA colleges- not hearing much about it yet. It will come though.
Athena Brown

Athena Brown I’m wondering why I’m not getting notifications. I saw this only because I just happened to come back to this thread. Hm.

Anyway….

>> If you think all of this wave does anything the same though, I think you are missing the point. The point of third wave is intersectionality.

^^^ I’m going to disagree. That’s not what the facts show.

https://4thwavers.wordpress.com/2014/08/15/what-is-feminism/

>> Who are the theorists of 4th wave?

^^^ I created the 4th Wave. The purpose is basically to rescue feminism from the 3rd Wave hijackers who have turned it into a faith-based man-hating movement. Here’s a better explanation: https://4thwavers.wordpress.com/…/is-feminism-a-religion/

>> I truly do no have time to dig through all the posts to find your earliest questions- mind reposting one or two and I will respond.

Sure. Here’s a recap.

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Patriarchy does not exist in the US, as there is no evidence for this, and tons of evidence **against** this. The evidence against patriarchy is as follows:

— Why is it totally okay to beat a man in public, but men can’t even LOOK at a woman without it being labeled and denounced? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRCS6GGhIRc
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— Why would we have laws allowing women to file charges of sexual harassment because of a swimsuit calendar in your cubicle? http://ehsdailyadvisor.blr.com/…/can-you-recognize…/
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— Why would we lower the physical requirements of women joining police departments (http://www.pstc.nh.gov/faqs.htm), the military (https://en.wikipedia.org/…/United_States_Army_Physical…), and remove tests for fire departments altogether (http://nypost.com/…/fdny-drops-physical-test…/), even when it’s been repeatedly demonstrated that women who actually bothered training would have no such need? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3fD-L-Gdjg
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— Why would I, as a woman, be allowed to board the bus ahead of someone who was clearly standing in line before me? Why is it when I drop something, three different men reach to pick it up? Why am I always allowed to use the restroom when the sign clearly says “no public restroom”? Why do I not have to pay for my own meals on dates? Why can I use the men’s room if there’s someone in the lady’s room, yet if a man tried that, he’d probably be arrested? http://www.katu.com/…/Portland-business-owner-in
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— Why are convicted killers of women more likely to get the death penalty? In a patriarchy. Where masculinity is more valued than femininity. http://www.presstelegram.com/article/20150627/NEWS/150628436
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— Why are women almost never given the death penalty? In a patriarchy. Where femininity is not as valued as masculinity. http://www.businessinsider.com/women-and-the-death
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— Why do we punish men just for the accusation of rape, but there’s virtually no recourse at all towards women who falsely accuse men of rape? If we valued men and not women, shouldn’t this be… reversed somehow?
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— Why would the suicide rate for men be 3 times higher than for women? In a society where they’re more valued? https://www.afsp.org/understanding-suicide/facts-and-figures
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— Why are you able to stand up in public, anywhere in the modern day US, and shout “WOMEN ARE SMARTER THAN MEN!” – and get applause, yet if you did that same exact thing and shouted men were smarter than women, you’d get beaten up? No need for hyperlinks here – just go out and try it yourself.
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— Why is it I can walk into a club wearing lipstick and eyeliner and have men fawn over me, yet for a man to have women fawn over him, he’d have to be a billionaire? What does money matter when men are more valued than women?
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— Why would the Justice Department have an entire branch set up just for violence against women, even though domestic violence has been shown repeatedly to happen at equal rates to both men and women? http://www.justice.gov/ovw
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— Why would this happen? https://nationalparentsorganization.org/…/3977
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— Why would we have Rape Shield laws? http://www.legalmatch.com/…/article/rape-shield-laws.html. How did those get passed in a patriarchy?
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— If a building is on fire, how many people would rush in, risking their lives, to save Bob, the big fat bald-headed accountant? How many would rush in to save Tammy, the bikini model? Almost everyone goes for the model – but why, when Bob is more valuable because penis *cough* I MEAN “patriarchy”?
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— If a woman is inside her house naked, and a man walks by and looks in the window, he’s a peeping tom, and gets arrested. Yet if it’s a man inside the house naked and a woman walks by, it’s still the man who gets arrested. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JRdFf8qtSc
.
— Why is almost 3 times as much spent on breast cancer than on prostate cancer? http://dailycaller.com/…/breast-cancer-receives-much…/
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— Why are we all okay with men being called nearly ever name under the sun (http://verbalabuseofmen.com/ ), but we need to “ban bossy”? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ban_Bossy
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— I have a pass that allows me to eat dinner at some of the shelters around town. Every evening when dinner is served, the women get to go first. Why? When we’re not as valued?
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— Why does 97% of alimony cases go to women? http://www.forbes.com/…/20/why-do-so-few-men-get-alimony/ – shouldn’t it go to men? Who are in power? Who are in charge? Who can just FORCE THE WOMAN to hand over her money and belongings to the man after a divorce? (You know, like they do in the middle east?)
.
If you want to see what patriarchy looks like, just imagine a world where we flip all of these around. Imagine living in a country where is the exact opposite of everything we have in the US now. That might arguably be a “patriarchy”.
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Is there any such place on earth that exists right now? Are there places where women are treated like trash just for being women? Why, yes, there is, as a matter of fact, glad you asked!!
.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq
.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan
.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somalia
.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yemen
.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria
.
And that’s probably the best indicator that we DON’T have that in the US. And that’s the answer to the original question put forward; yes, patriarchy is real, but not in any developed first world nation. WE DO NOT HAVE PATRIARCHY IN THE US!
.
Now explain to me how and why all of these things are able to happen “in a patriarchy”, and you’ll be half way home.
.
The other half would be providing evidence that patriarchy exists in the US.

It’s better if we define our terms right from the start. Yes, I know there are lots of different…
Athena Brown

Athena Brown Now as for the primary questions, summed up, they are (once again):

1) How do you explain all the observations from above,

and

2) Where is your evidence that it [patriarchy] exists?

Please note that all of your previous references have been answered already (like the AAUW study and all that), so you’ll need to come up with something else. Again, explain the observations listed and how they could exist if patriarchy were true, and then explain evidence for patriarchy.

Another option here is to simply reconsider your position. It’s okay to re-examine things when a counter-argument containing new facts and information has been presented, and reach a different conclusion.

Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm

Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm Men can be beaten in public/women can’t queation. Good. It is protective legislature that presupposes that women are more likely to be the victims not the perpetrators of violence. This is a that women are weaker and couldn’t hurt a man perpetuates the bad gender roles that play into patriarchial male superiority. As in it is somehow worse to take a punch from a girl and say ouch than it is from a guy. If the girl can hurt you you are less masculine. This perpetuates a bad gender based patriarchial stereotype that makes women the “weaker sex”.

File charges of sexual harassment for a stupid reason. Well you can actually file a lawsuit for a lot of things and win. Doesn’t prove or disprove anything. That one lady won a lawsuit for coffee being too hot at McDonald’s – go figure.

Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm

Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm Why would you be allowed to board a bus first etc… well, maybe the men were being polite. There are remnants of chivalry out there which is patriarchial if you know and understand the history, but I open doors for men as often as men open doors for me. If someone allows you to use a restroom, they are being nice. That isn’t patriarchial/non patriarchial. It is just kindness and common courtesy.

Patriarchy sees women as less yes, but they also value reproductive capabilities. So killers of women are not just killing the woman, they are also killing any chance at probable offspring. Would be my guess. Again this would be seen as protective legislature. Another argument: You can’t kill the woman because she would be less able to protect herself. Therefore harsher penalties.

Patriarchy isn’t good for men or women in most cases.

Again because of this patriarchial ideology of women as more pious,pure,domestic,and submissive women will get the death penalty less because they believe that truly women will need to be truly provoked in order to kill. This is protective patriarchy still not recognizing women as being equal to men (even in violence and depravity.)

Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm

Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm Justice Department, violence against women: again protective legislation that presupposes women to be more submissive and unable/unwilling to fight back. It is the same with rape. We know that there are different forms of rape, but up until the very recent past it was defined as penile/vaginal penitration. This would automatically exclude many many cases of rape, and many cases of men being raped. These are the same antiquated ideas that believe that a man can’t be raped by a woman, and if a man gets an erection he must have wanted it. It is stupidly absurd. Luckily things are changing. But again, unequal gender roles lead to inequality and bias.

Protective legislation often is put in place to protect women but in reality it just makes us less equal/culpable for ourselves.
The naked question….in CA both would be put on the sex offenders list…. but why is it that if she is raped/assualted/harassed her life is investigated from what she was wearing to who she sleeps with, etc. Men not at all.

Oh and why spend more $ on breast cancer than prostate- well I don’t have a prostate, 51% of the population doesnt, but men have breast tissue and are also getting breast cancer, often not getting checked until it is too late.

Names: because when you call a man a ball buster in a professional setting it doesn’t have the heavily laden connotations. Like it would to call a woman a bitch. Women are socialized in a patriarchial society not to compete with the boys, and those who do are called ugly names.

And regarding the alimony question, I think I answered it when I was addressing someone else.

Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm
Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm I believe that we live in a patriarchial society that is making strides towards equality. We aren’t there yet, but we are moving in that direction.
Athena Brown

Athena Brown >> This is a that women are weaker and couldn’t hurt a man perpetuates the bad gender roles that play into patriarchial male superiority.

^^^ So if women aren’t protected by law – see! Patriarchy!

If women *are* protected by law – because of Patriarchy!

No matter what situation, it will be interpreted in a way so that Patriarchy is still involved. As for women being protected by law, it could just as easily be due to women being MORE valued than men. There’s nothing inherent in added lawful protections that suggest it’s due to the reasons your narrative insists upon.

>> File charges of sexual harassment for a stupid reason. Well you can actually file a lawsuit for a lot of things and win. Doesn’t prove or disprove anything.

^^^ True, but what you see are companies all over America setting up sexual harassment policies, in accordance with laws, that are designed to protect mostly women. A woman can claim harassment, point the finger, and a man will lose his job. Men do not have anything like this working in their favor.

Why would a patriarchy allow this?

>> Why would you be allowed to board a bus first etc… well, maybe the men were being polite.

^^^ True, but the claim is that we live in a **patriarchy!** You would never see a woman getting on first in Iran, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, etc. Women would get on after the men, then they’d sit in the back of the bus. They’d also have to be escorted by men everywhere they go in public.

We have patriarchies in the world today and we can see exactly how they work. So how in the world does it happen that the results are the exact opposite here in America, where we’re supposed to have a patriarchy? Why would the man be polite, or put my considerations before his?

>> There are remnants of chivalry out there which is patriarchial if you know and understand the history

^^^ So a man is willing to don armour, pick up his sword, and fight to the DEATH for his lady….

To be clear, he is willing to throw down his life for her, whenever needed…

… because women aren’t valued? Because men are more important than women? If men are in control, why not just toss the bitch to the bears and let her get mauled? Why risk your life protecting her?

What definition of “patriarchy” are you using?

http://rlv.zcache.com/lady_queen_knighting_knight_antique… << if men were in charge during chivalry, how do you explain this picture????

>> If someone allows you to use a restroom, they are being nice. That isn’t patriarchial/non patriarchial. It is just kindness and common courtesy.

^^^ First you said letting me on the bus first is a remnant of chivalry, which you claim is patriarchal.

Then you claim that another kind act isn’t?

Why is being allowed to use a restroom that is customer’s only “just polite without the chivalry”, but letting me on the bus is “polite because of chivalry”?

rlv.zcache.com
Athena Brown

Athena Brown >> Patriarchy sees women as less yes, but they also value reproductive capabilities.

^^^ Okay sorry, I can’t reply to anymore such claims until you first prove that patriarchy EXISTS.

I’ve posted this maybe 4 times now, but here it is again. My questions to you are:

===========================
===========================
1) How do you explain all the observations from above,

and

2) Where is your evidence that it [patriarchy] exists?
===========================
===========================

I can’t entertain statements about something that doesn’t exist until you first provide evidence that it does exist.

>> Patriarchy isn’t good for men or women in most cases.

^^^ You’ve not yet offered any evidence that it exists.

>> Again because of this patriarchial ideology of women as more pious,pure,domestic,and submissive

^^^ You’ve not yet offered any evidence that it exists.

>> This is protective patriarchy still not recognizing women as being equal to men (even in violence and depravity.)

^^^ You’ve not yet offered any evidence that it exists.

Athena Brown

Athena Brown >> Justice Department, violence against women: again protective legislation that presupposes women to be more submissive and unable/unwilling to fight back.

^^^ No it doesn’t.

It could just as easily pass protection for women without ever having presupposed that.

>> It is the same with rape. We know that there are different forms of rape, but up until the very recent past it was defined as penile/vaginal penitration.

^^^ This has changed due to an improved understanding of what rape is, not due to some devious attempt for men to find ways they could still legally rape women.

Because during the same time that rape was defined this way, the penalty for a rape conviction was death.

How do you explain that? In a patriarchy?

>> Protective legislation often is put in place to protect women but in reality it just makes us less equal/culpable for ourselves.

^^^ Okay, so when men have laws that provide them with some advantage, in reality it just makes them less equal/culpable?

… no? Okay, then why is that the case with women?

(Of course we know the answer – because 3rd Wave Feminism insists that women are always the victims, like I said before. If a woman is disadvantaged, she’s a victim. If a woman is advantaged, she’s a victim. It has to be interpreted that way no matter what, because like religion, we have to convince you that there’s a problem – like you’re a sinner – before we can sell you the cure.)

>> The naked question….in CA both would be put on the sex offenders list…. but why is it that if she is raped/assualted/harassed her life is investigated from what she was wearing to who she sleeps with, etc.

^^^ She isn’t.

http://www.legalmatch.com/…/article/rape-shield-laws.html <— largely because of this.

Why would rape shield laws be passed to PREVENT all those things you just said … in a patriarchy?

>> Oh and why spend more $ on breast cancer than prostate- well I don’t have a prostate, 51% of the population doesnt, but men have breast tissue and are also getting breast cancer, often not getting checked until it is too late.

^^^ But we live IN A PATRIARCHY!!!! This is a system where men are supposed to be valued / get ahead / receive attention / be advantaged more so than women SIMPLY BECAUSE they are men!!!

In Saudi Arabia they’d just whimsically defund all female medical research and put it to male medical research because, well…. THEY’RE A PATRIARCHY! That’s precisely what that word means!

So why are we spending several times more on women’s health issues? The number of men who get breast cancer is very small. The number of men with prostate cancer is very high. Why would they not fund more on research for prostate research if they were valued MORE than women???

>> Names: because when you call a man a ball buster in a professional setting it doesn’t have the heavily laden connotations. Like it would to call a woman a bitch.

^^^ I like how for men, you picked out one of the most benign examples you could think of, and compared that to “bitch”, ignoring that “bitch” can have positive connotations as well.

This does not at all answer why it’s okay to all men every name under the sun, but as soon as you call a woman anything even slightly mean (like “bossy”), we have to all start banning that word.

Women are being given overwhelmingly more support and protection on every level than men. Why would this happen in a PATRIARCHY?

>> Women are socialized in a patriarchial society not to compete with the boys

^^^ Sorry no – you’ve not provided any evidence yet that patriarchy exists. I can’t entertain affirmative statements about something that hasn’t been shown to exist yet.

>> I believe that we live in a patriarchial society

^^^ That’s a statement of faith. You believe in something with no evidence – it’s the same as saying “I believe Jesus died for my sins”.

Rape shield laws expressly prohibit or limit the use of evidence of a victim’s past sexual history to undermine that victim’s credibility.. There’s no fee to post your case to local lawyers. Learn more about: Rape Shield Laws.
legalmatch.com|By Kourosh Akhbari
Athena Brown

Athena Brown The questions still stand.

1) How do you explain all the observations from above (why would they exist in a PATRIARCHY),

and

2) Where is your evidence that it [patriarchy] exists?

Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm

Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm If it is an employees only restroom, not a customers restroom- (clearly you here every right to use a customers restroom) that is the employee using their judgement to determine if you will get to use the restroom. Not a policy issue. They could say no tomorrow.

Chivalry- took hold in the 12th and 13th century when women were considered property. Valuable property, but property nonetheless. Women couldn’t own property, bring cases to court, testify in their own defense, choose their own marriage partner. I could go on. In some households women did exercise power, but that was because her husband allowed it. He gave her the keys when he went off, and she became chatelaine of the household. However he just as easily could have hired a steward to work in his place cutting her out of the issue. She is bought/sold with a bride price/dowery. This idea of female ownership will perpetuate until the 20th century when women spent close to 100 years agitating for the vote in the US. (Again, couldn’t own property, children were legally property of husband, she didn’t even own her own clothing. She couldn’t collect her own wages until late 19th c. Etc.)

To be clear, other than bodice rippers, and imagery- men weren’t actually throwing their lives down for the women. If a woman was raped per se, they may say….your honor blah blah…but it was actually because a property crime had been committed against them and they were collecting damages. She was now unmarriable because her reproductive organs were used, so IF she could marry, she would expect to marry much lower. Virginity was the prize. She (even though it was not her fault) no longer possessed it therefore she was worth less on the marriage market. (If she could marry at all.) This is why men would pick up his sword. By deflowering the daughter of the house, you just cost the father quite a bit of power/alliances etc. Oh and like as not if he was unmarried and acceptable he made her marry her rapist.

You compare our western society to Arab societies. But surely you realize that you cannot compare a first world society and a third? Of course many of their laws are not simple patriarchial but human rights violations. That is like comparing an apple to a tomato. They are both red and fruits but the similarities end there. Patriarchy in the US is different because it is a different culture. Patriarchy takes a different shape.

Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm
Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm I don’t see why you can not accept that patriarchial systems hurt both men and women. They perpetuate unequal laws, which aren’t good, and perpetuate gender roles that play into a strong gender binary. It perpetuates ideas that hurt men as much as women. Look to the Scandinavian countries to see where equality is going. Where fathers and fatherhood are valued as much as motherhood. Where there is much more equality between the sexes.
Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm
Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm And funny- when I do a quick research of 4th Wave Feminism your name never pops up? You invented 4th wave feminism? Huh? Yet when I Google your name I just get a bunch os social media sites. Sorry. At this point I believe you are not truly seeking answers to your questions. I have pointed out the common knowledge points of reference. You keep using non academic/referenced sources, some without authors so why should I take them as fact….because they are on the internet? I only used common knowledge information in my posts, (therefore unsourced) and directed you to the authors you should read. But I believe I have said more than enough, and I wish you well. You clearly have no grasp of history and the building of the world to this point, nor do you require rigor in your sources, so you believe anything if it seems true. I just can’t work with that. (I haven’t cited sources because everything I stated is common knowledge – something you would find in most survey collegiate history texts. Obviously subject specific.)
Athena Brown

Athena Brown >> If it is an employees only restroom, not a customers restroom- (clearly you here every right to use a customers restroom) that is the employee using their judgement to determine if you will get to use the restroom. Not a policy issue.

^^^ Okay now you’re just being deliberately thick.

https://awkwardlistdotcom.files.wordpress.com/…/restroo… <— See this sign? This sign is a *POLICY*. It says CUSTOMER’S ONLY.

It doesn’t say “Customers Only – unless we really like you and think you look cute”. It doesn’t say “Customer’s Only – if our cashier feels like it!”

It says CUSTOMER’S ONLY – because that’s what it means. It’s absolutely a policy.

I can take off my makeup and walk in as a man, ask to use the restroom – “Sorry, customer’s only”. I can put on my make up and walk back in dressed differently and using female voice, ask to use the restroom, and it’s “Oh of course, here’s the key!”

Now why would this, along with all the other benefits and advantages (read: privileges) happen with women in a patriarchy?

>> Chivalry- took hold in the 12th and 13th century when women were considered property. Valuable property, but property nonetheless.

^^^ This was stated in the law so that the man would have to pay taxes on them and provide for their welfare. If he didn’t do this, there were punishments placed upon him.

>> Women couldn’t own property,

^^^ Yes, they could.

http://pennpress.typepad.com/…/medieval-monday-five…

https://legioilynx.wordpress.com/…/womens-rights…/

http://calteches.library.caltech.edu/583/2/Searle.pdf

^ Particularly good read, from the link:

—– —–
The medieval marriage involved the transfer of property to the new couple by their parents; it involved an act of inheritance. And in courts that sought merit as the criterion of acceptability, strong property rights for women were an important asset. Any medieval girl thus was a potential heiress as well as the recipient of a dowry at her marriage. These strong principles of property rights played an important part in recruitment to the group
—– —–

>> bring cases to court,

^^^ Yes, they could

https://books.google.com/books?id=Z4SL2X3uHEAC&pg=PA134…

>> testify in their own defense,

^^^ Yes, they could. See above.

>> choose their own marriage partner.

^^^ While this is mostly true, it’s a bit more complex, and the woman did have choices.

http://www.brown.edu/…/dweb/society/sex/sex-spouses.php

>> I could go on.

^^^ You could, but you’ve gotten so much wrong already. From the AAUW study you cited early on until now, you’ve not actually refuted any of the points I put forward yet, nor have you provided any evidence for patriarchy in the modern day US.

I mean even if we did allow for medieval Europe to be a “patriarchy” (it was actually a feudal system, but whatever), you’re absolute BEST hope here is that remnants of chivalry from that age, existing as modern day politeness from men, somehow, someway, still counts as “patriarchy”.

The argument is basically “because people were polite during this patriarchy hundreds of years ago, if people are polite today, that’s patriarchy!” – because both share the same quality of politeness.

And sorry to bring this up again, but I’m once again starting to wonder how the hell you’re a professor. I mean, okay… you have an associates degree, and you teach at a community college?? That … I can see that! That’s possible. But there’s no way you have a PhD in gender studies and you’re this unfamiliar with life in the middle ages.

awkwardlistdotcom.files.wordpress.com
Athena Brown

Athena Brown >> In some households women did exercise power, but that was because her husband allowed it. He gave her the keys when he went off, and she became chatelaine of the household.

^^^ Yea that’s not at all accurate. Women could work and even run small shops in the middle ages. Here’s an actual history book you can read when you got time.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Z4SL2X3uHEAC&pg=PA68…

>> This idea of female ownership will perpetuate until the 20th century when women spent close to 100 years agitating for the vote in the US.

^^^ I’m wondering… do you also go for that whole “Columbus set sail to prove the world was round” bit? Because everything you’re saying here is so far departed from actual history, you could probably find a spot on The History Channel.

I’m not saying it was aliens…. but it was aliens.jpg.

https://www.gilderlehrman.org/…/legal-status-women-1776…

From the link:

—– —–
They had the legal right to live where they pleased and to support themselves in any occupation that did not require a license or a college degree restricted to males. Single women could enter into contracts, buy and sell real estate, or accumulate personal property, which was called personalty. It consisted of everything that could be moved—cash, stocks and bonds, livestock, and, in the South, slaves.
—– —–

I can’t help but start asking again. What college do you teach at?

>> To be clear, other than bodice rippers, and imagery- men weren’t actually throwing their lives down for the women.

^^^ An undeniable part of Chivalry is a man putting a woman before himself; to fight for her, to serve her, to be her champion. This is so deeply ingrained in our understanding of what “Chivalry” is, that it seems nonsensical – almost surreal – to start trying to redefine it towards 3rd Wave narrative. But of course, 3rd Wavers will try anyway.

http://www.theatlantic.com/…/lets-give-chivalry…/266085/

From the link:

—– —–
“This past spring marked the 100th anniversary of the sinking of the Titanic…In Washington DC, there is a memorial to these men. The inscription on it reads: ‘To the brave men who perished in the wreck of the Titanic…They gave their lives that women and children might be saved.’”
—– —–

Also from the link:

—– —–
Historically, the chivalry ideal and the practices that it gave rise to were never about putting women down, as Connelly and other feminists argue. Chivalry, as a social idea, was about respecting and aggrandizing women, and recognizing that their attention was worth seeking, competing for, and holding.
—– —–

Again, even if we conceded that chivalry was somehow treating women like victims (because that’s *the*only* interpretation that’s ever allowed) – it still does nothing to prove patriarchy existing in the US today. Just because 2 things share a particular element does not make those two things the same.

I breathe air. Adolf Hitler breathed air. I must be Hitler!

Chivalry (patriarchy) treated women with kindness. Men today treat women with kindness. Omg patriarchy is still here today!

>> You compare our western society to Arab societies. But surely you realize that you cannot compare a first world society and a third?

^^^ So you can’t have patriarchy in a 3rd world country?

Because I’m not comparing economics, GDP, GNP, PPP, exports, imports, income per capita, or anything else relevant to a 1st world vs a 3rd world country.

I’m showing you where patriarchy exists, and where it doesn’t exist. That’s the only thing relevant in this comparison.

>> Patriarchy in the US is different because it is a different culture. Patriarchy takes a different shape.

^^^ Evidence please.

Information about women in this truly fascinating period from 500 to 1500 is in…
Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm

Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm Actually I never said Phd, I said professor. I have a MA, and am ABD. Yes, I am sure there are exceptions to the predominant rules. There always are.

The bathroom thing does not have anything to do with patriarchy- it is clearly an employee or multiple employees indiscriminately implementing a policy. If you were elderly they would likely give you the key as well.

I find you picking apart my information laughable, because clearly you don’t understand academia. Nobody agrees on much, and new information changes the historical record constantly… like the new fertility deities that are male and date to the same age as the venus sculptures. Can completely change the historical record. Never said I was a medievalist. But I do understand how Feudalism worked, along with the Catholic influences on Western society. Is the educated Heloise the norm in French medieval society? No. Is there a book about her? Of course! She was special. Whenever we find something out of the norm we analyze and write about it. But truly I am done. I am sure you will respond negatively to anything I say….so all I will say is go in peace. I get paid well, and am evaluated by other academics regularly to make sure my lectures, ideas, and methodologies are accurate. Last two evals were superlative. So I really don’t need you, or Facebook for validation or approval. I tried to show you something without realizing how truly closed your mind already is. So, go in peace. I hope you find the answers you seek elsewhere.

Athena Brown

Athena Brown >> I don’t see why you can not accept that patriarchial systems hurt both men and women.

^^^ That’s not even the discussion. I totally agree that patriarchal systems hurt everyone.

The discussion is – 6th time now (we’re keeping count):

1) How do you explain all the observations from above (why would they exist in a PATRIARCHY),

and

2) Where is your evidence that it [patriarchy] exists?

Sure, patriarchy is bad. That was never the question. Where is your evidence that patriarchy exists in the US?

>> They perpetuate unequal laws,

^^^ Yup.

>> which aren’t good,

^^^ Uh-huh.

>> and perpetuate gender roles that play into a strong gender binary.

^^^ Arguably true.

>> It perpetuates ideas that hurt men as much as women.

^^^ Sure.

Now……….. where. Is. Your. Evidence.

That.

Patriarchy.

Exists.

In. The. United. States. Today?

>> And funny- when I do a quick research of 4th Wave Feminism your name never pops up? You invented 4th wave feminism?

^^^ I did indeed. However, 4th Wave Feminism is not about me. I have no intention of ever getting “famous” off the work I’ve put into my research. In 2015, I published a peer reviewed book on feminist theory, and began uploading much of it’s contents to 4th Wavers – the contents have sense not only survived further peer review, but ongoing public review. The comments section on 4th Wavers is open, and no comments are ever “awaiting moderation”. If you find an error with any of my research there, you’re free point it out and offer corrections.

I have no intention of ever selling the book. It’s free, and I’ve uploaded much of it to 4th Wavers already. I believe this research is too important to the public discussion on feminism now taking place. It’s important that we debunk 3rd Waver myths, because they’re absolutely toxic to women and the women’s rights movement.

I hope one day that 4th Wavers will take off, and fly away without me. I’m more interested in social change, and helping to empower women.

Athena Brown

Athena Brown >> Yet when I Google your name I just get a bunch os social media sites.

Okay, posting a screen shot now.

https://4thwavers.wordpress.com/…/proving-this-site-is…/ – there you go. (That’s temporary by the way – it’ll be deleted January 15th. It simply proves that I do own the site.)

Again, I have never promoted myself, because I honestly don’t care to be recognized as the creator. I’m not trying to get famous. I want 4th Wavers to one day take off on it’s own.

>> Sorry. At this point I believe you are not truly seeking answers to your questions.

^^^ Oh come on, really? I asked 2 questions. You haven’t answered either one.

And you’re going to bow out now, using the fact that you can’t find me on google as an excuse?

>> You clearly have no grasp of history

^^^ Oh god… the irony on that one.

>> nor do you require rigor in your sources, so you believe anything if it seems true.

^^^ I’ve provided you with a multitude of different sources. Tell me which ones you don’t like, and I’ll find you several OTHER sources that will give you the same information. So far, everything I’ve posted is credible.

You on the other hand have not provided any sources at all. You mentioned a few authors, and that’s all.

Your position is that Patriarchy exist in the US. Because you’re making that assertion, the burden of proof lies upon you to provide evidence. Now if patriarchy is just so darn evident, and you’re a *PROFESSOR*… why the hell can’t you offer up even one iota of evidence to back your claim?

>> I haven’t cited sources because everything I stated is common knowledge – something you would find in most survey collegiate history texts

^^^ Amazing.

I posted you sources to *actual* collegiate history texts that refute the things you’ve said.

Yes, believe it or not, Columbus did not try to prove the world is round. Women *COULD* own property in the middle ages, and most certainly could by the 1700s in America. This is “common knowledge” – and yet a simple 5 minute google search is all it took to prove otherwise.

You should have bowed out ages ago when I gave you a chance the first time.

This is a temporary post I’m making for a certain someone who claims they’re a…
Athena Brown

Athena Brown >> The bathroom thing does not have anything to do with patriarchy- it is clearly an employee or multiple employees indiscriminately implementing a policy.

^^^ That same exact thing could be said about any female privilege.

But the point is, it’s still a privilege. And you’ve still not explained how or why it would exist in a patriarchy.

That seems like such an easy question for something so abundantly obvious that you don’t feel the need to even cite any sources. You’ve still not answered.

>> I find you picking apart my information laughable, because clearly you don’t understand academia. Nobody agrees on much, and new information changes the historical record constantly

^^^ I offered numerous sources, all of which refuted your “common knowledge” claims.

>> But I do understand how Feudalism worked, along with the Catholic influences on Western society. Is the educated Heloise the norm in French medieval society? No. Is there a book about her? Of course!

^^^ That has nothing to do with my 2 original questions. You still have not answered them.

=====================
1) How do you explain all the observations from above (why would they exist in a PATRIARCHY),

and

2) Where is your evidence that it [patriarchy] exists?
======================

It’s pretty clear that you can’t answer these, and now you’re running from the debate so you don’t have to.

>> I am sure you will respond negatively to anything I say

^^^ Well, so far:

— You’ve tried to dismiss me from this debate because I grew up male, and therefore wouldn’t understand “the dynamics”. Once I challenged this point you abandoned it almost immediately and instead tried to back-peddle by fawning concern for the transgender community.

— Used the term “male gaze” incorrectly.

— COMPLETELY blew it on explaining the origins of patriarchy. I provided 2 sources, one from a highly accomplished feminist archaeologist, that explains this subject in detail. You abandoned that point as well.

— Listed 7 ancient civilizations by name. Was dead wrong on at least 4 of them.

— Cited the AAUW study. I provided no less than 3 authoritative sources responding to that study, debunking it.

— Showed that you did not understand what 3rd Wave Feminism was, or what it was about (it’s not “intersectionality”). I provided a link that included multiple sources. You abandoned this point immediately.

— Stated medieval women couldn’t own property. Shown to be wrong.

— Stated medieval women couldn’t bring cases to court. Shown to be wrong.

— Stated medieval women couldn’t testify in court. Shown to be wrong.

— Stated that women couldn’t exercise power on their own. Shown to be wrong.

— Stated that chivalry was a product of patriarchy, but couldn’t explain why or how (probably because it’s wrong).

— I’ve asked over 7 times for evidence of patriarchy in the US. Exactly 0 of those times did you answer the question, or provide any evidence.

— Gave one last shot at discrediting me by claiming you found me on social media by using a google search (really?)

— You’ve made such a big show out of “being a professor at a university”, used heavily condescending remarks telling me I should sign up for your classes so you could “teach me your wisdom”, yet virtually everything you’ve said so far has dodged my original questions (7 + times, still no answer) and has simply been wrong.

As well, you’ve refused to say what university you work at.

And I’m guessing it’s because you don’t actually work at a university.

You’re just a well-read 3rd Waver who likes to pretend, and you thought since you’ve browsed a few informative sites a couple of times, that you’d come here and “teach me a lesson”. Didn’t work out that way, did it?

But yea, there might be a reason things are looking negative for you here.

>> I get paid well, and am evaluated by other academics regularly to make sure my lectures, ideas, and methodologies are accurate.

^^^ No, you don’t. Because almost everything you’ve said in this discussion so far was able to be refuted with a simple 5 minute google search. I’m not buying it that you actually work at a university. It’d be easy enough to just tell us the name, and a simple check of their faculty could confirm it.

Sare Kumagai Neža Vižintin — still think she said the right things to me?

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Andrew Joseph
Andrew Joseph Gwen, why do I get the feeling that you’re full of shit whether you’re teaching a class or not? Just because Athena isn’t a student paying tuition doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be willing to engage her in debate on here. That strongly implies that you’re all style and no substance, and that in class you hide behind the mantle of authority to force your views on students instead of engaging in a mutually beneficial exchange of ideas. You’re trying to play yourself off as some sort of indispensable professional with highly valuable knowledge, when in reality you’re just another subpar intellect getting paid to indoctinate other people in government-subsidized grievance studies.
Dennis Adkins
Dennis Adkins Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm I call bullshit. You are not a gender studies professor, You are an associate faculty member in the History department at a community college. Why you gotta try to lay down some bullshit?
Like · Reply · 1 · 23 hrs · Edited
Dennis Adkins
Dennis Adkins
Dennis Adkins
Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm
Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm I am a gender/sexuality historian who teaches gender history. That is a gender studies professor. I dont believe I said university. I believe I said professor. And I am.
Dennis Adkins

Dennis Adkins Wrong, I looked you up, you are a history teacher that tries to inject feminist theory into your history class. Been reading over some of the comments on your “ratemyprofessor” page. Very interesting reading.

“I feel she would be an exceptional teacher if she would stay on topic. She allows students to distract her and get her off topic. I find her unbalanced in her views. She definitely leans left and very feminist. I don’t mind it, but it does get tiresome like she is beating a rotting horse. ”

“The class was very unorganized throughout the semester. She repeatedly brought up women’s history and gender roles which I thought became annoying after a while.”

“Nice lady but I dont recommend her class. She is very feminist which is interesting but the class is hard.”

“It gets hard for a guy to get through this class sometimes because of all the feminism flying around”

“mixes women’s history into the class”

“. She is a feminist, but that’s okay. She provides a great feminist perspective on history”

“Yes, she teaches from a feminist perspective,”

“She teaches from a feminist point of view”

“his teacher is a hardcore feminist. Do not take this class if you want to learn history from an unbiased point of view.”

” and she teaches all History classes from a feminist point of view”

So no, you are not a gender studies professor, you are an associate professor that uses your history classes as a pulpit and a platform for you feminist agenda. Which I find truly reprehensible. Your obvious bias has been noticed and commented on extensively.

And I never said anything about a university either. But you came on here acting like you are some hot shot professor of gender studies so we should all listen to you. When you are nothing more than a glorified assistant at some rinky dink community college who uses her position to push her feminist bias onto malleable youth. Your abuse of your position is disgusting.

Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm
Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm Did you notice that some of those comments were from a women’s history class, or when the texts are gender/sexuality specific….what do you expect? By the way…students drop the classes that only teach white male history. And rate my professor gives you mostly students who either love or hate a professor no in between. I teach skills in my classes that students actually use and can take beyond history…was that mentioned? Nope. Specifically the skills taught are not how to write a research paper but how to deconstruct a secondary source. This improves their critical reading so they retain more and critical writing so they have stronger writing skills. In a history class- because writing is required, they are unprepared for the level of writing and I dont want to just fail them- so I actually teach outside my discipline to make sure they can pass. I am privileged enough to get to work in a CC because that is where I choose to work. I love it there. I do not see it as less. I actually get to teach- not lecture from a pulpit. (Oh lecture is only about 40%of my class. Students interests in the material drive the course- which tends to drive into marriage, family, gender, sexuality- points of reference we all can share, and have opinions and discussion. If they want to talk about war- we do that too. My holocaust lecture usually makes them cry. My Opium Wars lecture shows what happens when you don’t understand the culture you want to deal with. 75 % of my students engage because they like it, 10 because they want to argue with me. .. so I have 85 % of my history class engaged. Learning skills, not just dates, and driving controversial discussion and making modern connections. Yeah I suck. That is why there is normally a waiting list for my classes. (School starts on the 25th and I only have seats in one class left, and when I checked- 12 of those students already enrolled had taken my classes previously….so I must really suck.) I am a rigorous instructor preparing them for a university and don’t give them any bullshit. Plus I make myself human by sharing my life with them before class starts if they ask. As they share theirs. I really suck…that is why I have all these damn letters of recommendation to write….that I don’t get paid to do- because as you so kindly pointed out I am still an adjunct. (Which is a choice I have made because I am not going to leave Southern California, my husband has a business here.)
Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm
Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm Oh and I tell them of my obvious bias the very first day. And that they will get more women’s history than they are used too, because I present a 50/50 class. How does that work? Well in a traditional class you read the Code of Hammurabi, mine too. But instead of the traditional pieces on economic law, we read about rape and how this is handled and what that means to society. We are reading the SAME source, but a different selection. So if you think that is bad teaching- you go ahead get your degrees, figure out how you want to teach your classes and have at it.
Athena Brown

Athena Brown You still ain’t answered those 2 questions, professor.

1) How do you explain all the observations from above (why would they exist in a PATRIARCHY),

and

2) Where is your evidence that it [patriarchy] exists?

You’re a gender studies professor / historian / and then some.

Why can’t you answer 2 questions?

>> I teach skills in my classes that students actually use and can take beyond history

^^^ Do those skills include answering really simple questions? Because you don’t seem able to do that.

>> Specifically the skills taught are not how to write a research paper but how to deconstruct a secondary source. This improves their critical reading so they retain more and critical writing so they have stronger writing skills.

^^^ You can do all that, but you can’t answer two questions.

>> I am privileged enough to get to work in a CC because that is where I choose to work.

^^^ Called it. smile emoticon

>> That is why there is normally a waiting list for my classes. (School starts on the 25th and I only have seats in one class left, and when I checked- 12 of those students already enrolled had taken my classes previously….so I must really suck.)

^^^ Sweetheart, you work in a COMMUNITY COLLEGE. This is where lower income folks go when they’re trying to earn a degree. OF COURSE you’re going to have classes packed when your degree cost as much as I spend on coffee each year.

But that’s not why you suck.

You suck because you came on here, made a big play out of being a professor, and claimed the US is a “patriarchy”. But then you failed to provide ANY evidence to back up your statement, and made numerous statements about history that were just plane wrong.

A history teacher that is repeatedly wrong about history simply isn’t a good teacher. Your classes are packed because they’re cheap – which is probably also why they got you as a teacher. You’re unaware of how women lived in the middle ages. Or how women lived in America in the 1700s. Or how women lived in most of the ancient civilizations you named.

>> I am a rigorous instructor preparing them for a university and don’t give them any bullshit.

^^^ Except when you tell them that patriarchy began when women lost control of the food supply?

Or how women in America during the 1700s weren’t allowed to own property?

Or how trans women don’t understand “the social dynamics” of a real woman?

…… sounds to me like bullshit is the only thing you do give them. But of course you can get away with that at a community college.

>> But instead of the traditional pieces on economic law, we read about rape and how this is handled and what that means to society.

^^^ Who wants to bet she also goes for the whole “rape culture” thing?

Still haven’t answered my 2 questions.

Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm

Gwendollyn Ulrich-Schlumbohm Athena I have given you numerous examples. You talk about how you created 4th wave feminism. I called bullshit. You assumed I was a university professor- well honey, you assumed too much. I am a college professor, and because my claims held up, you demean. Like a man. Maybe I need to rethink how women accept the Trans community if this is how they act and respond. Like I said in my first post, don’t be a Caitlyn. Well you clearly don’t know history, you clearly don’t understand how academia works. You OBVIOUSLY don’t understand the differences between cc and uni teaching. Uni publish or perish- cc work with students and make a difference in people’s lives. I have had opportunities to teach in uni’s I turned them down- because I want to work with students. (My classes cap at 45 uni’s at 250.) Oh and your assumption that all students at cc are low income? Well I don’t know where you live but in Southern California it is impossible to get into local universities like SDSU, UCSD, UCLA. There are other colleges, but here many many students of all income levels, and students who go to UCSD, or SDSU take my classes. Because they prefer a smaller class, because it is cheaper, because it was impossible to get into their preferred school with a 4.2 GPA in high school. I am glad you earn sooooooo much money. I don’t. But I am blessed where I work. I am not wrong, I was speaking to overall patterns. Read Dubois for US History, oh but you don’t actually read…. Read Nancy Cott…yeah still probably not going to educate yourself beyond wordpress and wikipedia. So ms I invented the 4th wave the biggest problem with the 4th wave- nobody knows shit about you unless you know the secret password. I don’t need a secret password for my feminism. I am upfront about it. From day one. I already gave you Gerda Lerner, but you can’t have a discussion about theory. Why? Because you are an uneducated hack otherwise known as a troll. I hoped to have a theoretical discussion with you, but YOU CAN’T DISCUSS THEORY BECAUSE YOU DON’T KNOW ANY OTHER THAN THE ONE YOU PULLED OUT OF YOUR ASS. That isn’t academia. We build on eachother and argue, but we don’t do this. It is beneath us. You call me wrong when 3 different World/Western survey texts, Bulliet, McKay, Hunt, will all say I am correct. I would give you the full cation but let’s be real it wouldn’t change your opinion. Yes, of course there are exceptions to the rule. But I was correct. US Historians Sklar, Cott, and Dubois would all agree with me. You can argue minutia. But again nothing is going to change your opinion. I am a professional, but you can diminish it- I notice you haven’t stated what you do. God knows it isn’t an English teacher.

For the record, I generally don’t address trans politics…only history and modern political drama. But maybe after this encounter I will stop trying to educate my exceptionally conservative students (Lots of military in San Diego) on Trans issues. You can do just fine on your own without my advocating for your rights. Since you clearly will not be advocating for gender equality. (Because you might run into more feminists who believe in the evil patriarchy.)

Athena Brown

Athena Brown >> Athena I have given you numerous examples.

^^^ No you haven’t.

You’ve tried to explain away the very clear female privileges, but haven’t explained why they exist in a patriarchy. You proceeded to list off numerous historical myths and fallacies, and you still haven’t answered the 2 questions I put forward.

>> You talk about how you created 4th wave feminism. I called bullshit.

^^^ And then I provided you with a post on 4th Wavers proving the site was mine. The site is dedicated to 4th Wave Feminism. To my knowledge, no other such site exists. This one is the first.

>> you demean. Like a man.

^^^ Oh COME ONNNNNNNNNNNNNNN.

Are you **seriously** going to start attacking my gender NOW? It’s bad enough you’ve fallen this far, but now you’re at the bottom, you’re gonna grab a shovel and keep digging further.

>> You OBVIOUSLY don’t understand the differences between cc and uni teaching.

^^^ You came in here, loudly and proudly waving around your credentials, “I’M A PROFESSOR AND I’M HERE TO SCHOOL YOU”.

Virtually everything you’ve said so far has been wrong. Now you’re getting frustrated and attacking my gender, and it seems this is going to devolve into name calling pretty quickly.

>> I am not wrong, I was speaking to overall patterns. Read Dubois for US History, oh but you don’t actually read

^^^ Hey how bout you read those links on US history I posted earlier. You know, the one that explained how women in the US could own property just fine?

After you said they couldn’t?

Now you’re suggesting I start reading?

>> So ms I invented the 4th wave the biggest problem with the 4th wave- nobody knows shit about you unless you know the secret password. I don’t need a secret password for my feminism.

^^^ ……. I have no idea what she’s talking about.

Password?

Nobody knows about me because, as I very clearly explained (maybe you should read more), I have deliberately not associated my name with 4th Wave Feminism, because my goal is *NOT* to get famous from the movement.

>> I already gave you Gerda Lerner, but you can’t have a discussion about theory. Why?

^^^ Because you don’t win a debate by simply NAMING PEOPLE! I can do that too. Watch.

“Go read Earnest Hemingway!”

See what I did there? I told you to go read a book.

…… what’s that? You didn’t stop everything and go read an entire book before your next post? YOU DON’T KNOW HOW TO READ!

You know what you could do? You could answer my questions. 10th time I’m asking.

1) How do you explain all the observations from above (why would they exist in a PATRIARCHY),

and

2) Where is your evidence that it [patriarchy] exists?

And no, the answer isn’t “go read a book”. The answer is explaining how on earth a patriarchy could exist in the US. Back up your position with evidence.

>> Because you are an uneducated hack otherwise known as a troll.

^^^ That’s not what the word “troll” means.

Add that to the now growing list of terms you’ve gotten wrong.

>> YOU CAN’T DISCUSS THEORY BECAUSE YOU DON’T KNOW ANY OTHER THAN THE ONE YOU PULLED OUT OF YOUR ASS.

^^^ You’re the only one in this discussion so far who has not provided any evidence, links, sources, or references. And still can’t answer 2 very simple questions no matter how many times they get asked.

>> You call me wrong when 3 different World/Western survey texts, Bulliet, McKay, Hunt, will all say I am correct.

^^^ Because. You are. Wrong.

Most early human civilizations started out as matriarchies. This has been absolutely proven beyond any contention.

Women in the middle ages could go to court and could testify. We have written records of this actually happening.

Women in the 1700s could own property. Again, written records. It doesn’t matter how many names you drop. These things really did, honestly, actually, happen.

If I said George Washington was the first president of the United States, you couldn’t go “READ McKay! This book agrees with me!” – and expect history to suddenly be different. If this is your understanding of how logical proof works, I can’t fathom how on earth you became a professor, even if it is just at a community college.

>> But again nothing is going to change your opinion.

^^^ Sure it will! Evidence will change my mind. This is the 11th time I’m asking.

1. How can you explain all the observations given earlier, and

2. Where is your evidence that patriarchy exists?

>> I am a professional

^^^ Oh, so THAT’S why you’re attacking my gender and resorting to ad-hominens.

>> But maybe after this encounter I will stop trying to educate my exceptionally conservative students (Lots of military in San Diego) on Trans issues.

^^^ THANK GOD! With the sheer volume of things you’ve gotten totally and completely wrong about everything up until now, I can only imagine the just-as-easily-disproved myths you must be teaching about trans identity.

>> Since you clearly will not be advocating for gender equality. (Because you might run into more feminists who believe in the evil patriarchy.)

^^^ Correct – and those feminist won’t have evidence either. And I can ask THEM 11 times in a row, and they won’t be able to provide any just like you can’t.

Because Patriarchy doesn’t exist in the US. It’s just a tool for victim-enabling. It’s because I believe in empowering women that I stand so strongly against self-victimizing narratives like that one. There is no secret scary shadowy WHITE MEN out there controlling everything, as you probably teach (though of course you dress it up to sound pseudo-academic). Women can do anything they put their minds to. They aren’t perpetual victims.

4th Wavers is dedicated to empowering women. We do that in large part by debunking silly myths like patriarchy.

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9 thoughts on “When They Just Can’t Win, Part 3: Patriarchy Debate

  1. Hey, I’m having trouble getting any of the links you use in this discussion to work. Any ideas how to get to the info you present?

    Also, you wrote this: “In 2015, I published a peer reviewed book on feminist theory, and began uploading much of it’s contents to 4th Wavers”
    Would you be willing to provide a link to it? It sounds at least a little interesting.

    Like

    • Hey there CLB,

      First, thanks for alerting me about the links issue!! It seems this stems from a formatting error. I’ll definitely get right on this either today or tomorrow and fix all the links. Had no idea. Glad someone spoke up.

      Second, I’m actually phasing out the book. Much of it’s contents are now available on this website, and in the coming weeks, the rest of it will also be uploaded, along with updated information. I wanted to make it free for everyone, which is partly why this site exists.

      By March of this year, I wont be offering the book anymore (I hope by then I’ve uploaded the rest of it). If you’d still like to give it a look before then, email me at athena.k.brown@gmail.com and I’ll send you a copy.

      Like

  2. Hey! Since the sight is on hiatus, I didn’t expect you to reply so quickly, thanks for taking the time.

    Also, thanks for looking into the links, I love having good research available to review and hold onto for future conversations. You seem to have quite a bit, too, and that is even more intriguing to me. It’s kind of difficult to sort through anti-third wave writers because many of them come off as uneducated and intentionally ignorant.

    I’d love to have an actual copy of your book, I’ll e-mail you in just a minute. I’m a little sad you’re phasing it out, it seems like good peer reviewed research is something that’s hard to find, though I know there is quite a bit out there. I personally think it’s very useful to have a solid list of research placed into one body of text, especially as a resource for understanding a point of view.

    Anyway, I just ran into your blog a few days ago while searching for information on fourth wave feminism. Seems like there aren’t many sights dedicated to the concept yet, and your interpretation is particularly unique..though to be fair I haven’t spent a lot of time searching yet.

    I’m curious, after having read several of your articles, have you read Christina Hoff Sommers “The War Against Men”? I’m making my way through it now after finding it in the middle of a search for information about the AAUW after reading your exchange above about the topic. I am, unfortunately, not nearly as well read on this topic as I’d like, so I wanted to ask if this was one of your sources, or if you had your own favorite author on the subject?

    Like

    • How the book came about has it’s own story, which I should probably make another post on when I start working on this site again.

      Shortly after I transitioned a little over 2 years ago, I was getting told all sorts of bizarre things. I was told that men were going to “objectify me”, that I had to be careful when I went out at night, that I’d be earning less than men, etc. I was prepared to face these challenges as a trans woman… but they never came. Men never “objectified” me. They were attracted to me! They were nice to me and asked me out frequently… but who gets nervous talking to an object?? This didn’t make sense, and my paychecks started going *up*, not down.

      I started reading into some of these claims, and wrote some of my preliminary ideas in an email to another trans friend, and that just opened up the flood gates, because the exchange quickly went south. Suddenly, I was a “rape apologist”, and being brainwashed by this “patriarchy”. That exchange nearly ended a 20 year friendship with this person, and at that point, I was determined to write an email back responding to all these points.

      That email eventually became the book. 🙂 It just got longer, and longer, and I found more points to reply to, and it grew. Unlike 3rd Wavers, who want only other 3rd Wavers to review their work, I decided to send the book off to as many people as would be willing to read it, including a few researchers in various fields. Each and every single sentence was scrutinized, and a few things needed to be edited due to legit counter evidence.

      From there, I started uploading the contents to 4th Wavers, where it has survived ongoing public review. And things are still edited when mistakes are found! That’s how science works. https://4thwavers.wordpress.com/2015/04/21/a-response-to-rape-culture-part-2of5/ <– here you can see a correction, at the bottom of the 3rd major paragraph. So far there's been about 4 corrections on this site, and I always thank the person who finds them. How many 3rd Wavers would do that?

      But yea, now I've got much of the book posted up here, and each time I post a section up, I get another chance to look over the material, and make little edits so it comes across better. Enough of it will be up soon, that I think it's best just to refer to the site, rather than email the book.

      Now, during the writing of the book… honestly I can't remember all the sources and books I went through. There were so many. I do remember Christina Hoff Sommers – in fact I mentioned her at least once in the book. Girl Writes What was a major help in pointing me in the right direction for certain things. But the thing is, I wouldn't just lift what these people said and put them in the book; I would track down all the original research papers, then scrutinized those as carefully as I could to determine if the conclusions were valid. And from there, I'd follow where the evidence went. I certainly can't remember all the university names and teams of scientists. I will say, I was fortunate during that time to be able to spend nearly all day, almost every day, for a year on this endeavor.

      That's probably why my work has survived public review, even while I very frequently post links onto 3rd Waver forums and communities. If anything were actually wrong, they'd have pointed out where it was wrong, and I would have thanked them. Most of the time however, they just delete my comments, ban me from the forum, and if they can't do either of those, it just turns into name calling.

      Anyway that's a brief story of the book and where all the research comes from. I'll email you a copy in a little while.

      Like

  3. “That’s how science works”, and that’s why I’ve been reading your blog 🙂 Yep, checking your facts is exactly what I’m doing right now, and I’m glad you feel the same way about it.

    I went through a GirlWritesWhat (Karen Straughan) period a couple of years ago when I first ran into her on the youtubes. She was the first person I’d seen who actually used a lot of research and evidence to show significant problems with the arguments that were making their way across mainstream news and political commentary. It’s difficult to find some of her research though, she doesn’t link to it as readily as you do.

    After a while I started losing friends though, when I started to use some of the facts she pointed out and linking to her work, so I kind of stopped following Straughan for a while. She displays a lot of anger in her videos, and I think it makes people very reactionary when they see them (at least that’s what I think is happening, it could be simply the religious mindset that appears to have overtaken feminism).

    Right now I’m trying to compile a good reading list to counter much of the bad ideology that is pervasive these days. During the part of the argument where you pointed out that Gwendolyn was just naming books and authors, it occurred to me that is exactly what I’ve had happen to me as well. It seems like one of the major attacks used has been to quote a reading list, and it seems like having a counter reading list would be very useful to promote facts and understanding while citing sources and making it clear the sources have been vetted. Having published books available also appears to lend some sort of credibility to counter arguments as well, but really, for me, I’d just like to be able to find usable and source-able research that I can read myself.

    Would you happen to have any other authors you can recommend for this list?

    Like

    • Hey there,

      First, I just now made this post to help out a little. Thought it might come in handy: https://4thwavers.wordpress.com/2016/01/26/how-to-answer-3rd-wave-feminist-arguments/ .

      Hmm…. I’m actually not sure if I can recommend any authors that you wouldn’t already know. http://readingsubtly.blogspot.com/2012/10/the-stem-fempire-strikes-back-feminists.html – This fella has done a fantastic job at answering STEM fem claims, so that might be an additional resource to look through. There’s also plenty of youtubers who very often give good point-by-point rebuttals.

      https://www.youtube.com/user/Thunderf00t

      https://www.youtube.com/user/TheAmazingAtheist

      https://www.youtube.com/user/SargonofAkkad100

      …….. you know, it just now hit me…. I ought to make another post, linking THESE guys, and THEIR arguments too! How bout that. I think that will be my next post actually. So I’ll stop here and get compiling a list in a day or so.

      Merlin Stone “When God Was A Woman” is probably the most comprehensive work I’ve ever seen published on the historical progression from matriarchy to patriarchy (I’m actually really impressed she was able to compile *that* much information in a pre-internet age).

      Trying to think… can’t come up with too many authors besides the one’s already mentioned so far.

      Like

      • Dear Athena,

        Thank you very much for your blog and your kind and clear way when dealing with those arguments. I also found your description of your trans experience very fascinating. It is fantastic (in my eyes) when someone talks in such a positive way about this.

        And +1000 to EMPOWERING women (and men) – regardless of identity or biological born gender.

        I am not sure you have heard of Kafkatraps, yet, but http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=2122 has some great formulations for why “they just can’t win”. I disagree though with the article that you need to end a discussion if someone uses a true kafkatrap, because as you have shown with enough arguments and good questions it is possible to show that the argument only exists, because the argument is assumed to be true, but can’t be proven. I still found the concept enlightening.

        Did you consider to publish your book via books-on-demand and/or amazon kindle?

        I know that you would need to take some money then, but in my experience that does not hurt – as long a someone can download the .mobi or a .pdf from your webpage, too. And you could still put in the foreword the information, that the webpage will always have the newest information.

        I think this would help your credibility, too. In my eyes you don’t need more credibility, but published books and papers do show up on google scholar e.g., while this web page would not.

        Also submitting a paper to a conference with some facts might be a good way to get some more peer review and a broader audience.

        We need (in my opinion) such a positive feminism.

        Thanks,

        Hans

        Like

      • Well, I’ve run into a few of those before, true. But I don’t think those come off as much better than media fringe. A major part of winning over people in an argument is knowing the audience. For that we’d need mainstream authors and producers, not just youtubers, and preferably women (nothing personal, I myself am male, but the audience is already biased and we can’t ignore that bias and pretend like we’re going to convince anybody). Even when they do make salient points and good arguments they are just too easy to dismiss and don’t get enough audience to do any good.

        I’ve started going through a number of Christina Hoff Sommers’ interviews and she’s listed several authors here and there;
        Camille Paglia
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camille_Paglia
        Daphne Patai
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daphne_Patai
        Katie Roiphe
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katie_Roiphe
        Cathy Young
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathy_Young

        Of particular note, Christine Stolba (Sommers refers to her as Christine Rosen, not sure why yet) was commissioned by the Independent Women’s Forum to perform a content analyses of five major women’s studies “textbooks”:
        http://www.iwf.org/files/d8dcafa439b9c20386c05f94834460ac.pdf

        Quote: “the “knowledge” transmitted by Women’s Studies textbooks is often factually and interpretively at odds with
        reality. Rather than offering young men and women exposure to knowledge, these texts foster a cynical knowingness about women’s status in society, one that consistently emphasizes women’s supposedly subordinate position.The danger of such a worldview, particularly for a
        generation of young men and women who enter the classroom already steeped in popular myths about women’s place in society, is that it will ripen into a form of anti-intellectualism.”

        Wiki link for the IWF (Stolba does not yet have one):
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Women's_Forum

        Though Sommers calls herself a moderate liberal feminist, note how many of these people, and in particular the IWF, are identified as conservative or republican. Particularly in light of efforts by democrats to identify republicans as anti-women 😛

        Also, following the trail of critiques for Merlin Stone’s work, I found a reference to another book of similar content but with actual historical criticisms listed on wikipedia:
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marija_Gimbutas
        One quote in particular, “Fleming, in his 1969 paper “The Myth of the Mother Goddess”, questioned the practice of identifying neolithic figures as female when they weren’t clearly distinguished as male, and took issue with other aspects of the “Goddess” interpretation of Neolithic stone carvings and burial practices.[18]”

        And finally, just as an interesting point, here are a couple of studies that came out last year that weren’t mentioned in Dennis Junk’s article:
        “National hiring experiments reveal 2:1 faculty preference for women on STEM tenure track”
        http://www.pnas.org/content/112/17/5360.full
        “Compared to men, women view professional advancement as equally attainable, but less desirable”
        http://www.pnas.org/content/112/40/12354.full

        Anyway, I’m sorry I took so long to respond, I’m spending a lot of time reading and doing research regarding these issues right now, in addition to just plain being busy. The other person (Hans) commenting about how you should get your stuff published has a good point. You may need some rewrites here and there, as well as more in depth research, but what you have isn’t bad and you should consider compiling it for publication.

        Like

  4. Pingback: How to Answer 3rd Wave Feminist Arguments | 4th Wave Feminism

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