When They Just Can’t Win, Part 2: Patriarchy in the US

Feel free to link this page anytime you’re in a discussion over the myth of patriarchy!

So I found myself in a discussion on UltraViolet’s thread, which you can see here: https://www.facebook.com/weareultraviolet/posts/959622207441156 (and in case they see this and make the community private, the story being discussed is here: http://www.cosmopolitan.com/politics/a49050/daniel-holtzclaw-trial-oklahoma/ ).  For those of you who don’t know, UltraViolet is a 3rd Waver site, much like Upworthy and Everyday Feminism.  So naturally when I opened the comments section, I saw the usual rhetoric, claims of victimhood, and man-hating that I’m sure most of our regular visitors are familiar with.

During the course of the discussion, I decided to post some research related to the concept of the US being a “patriarchy”, which you’ll see in a bit.  It was one of those things where after I was done, I thought “this is actually pretty good.  I could put this up on 4th Wavers later.”

But as the exchange went on, as is typical when one side starts losing the argument, they contacted the page administrators and got them to delete the thread.  Can’t win the argument?  Time for censorship!

This is why I make a habit of copy-pasting everything I post.  ^_^

So here it is.  Enjoy!
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Michelle Mullen

Because like it or not, we live in a patriarchal society. As long as men are the primary aggressors in sexual assault, this topic will NEVER get as much attention as it deserves.

Like · Reply · 40 · 15 hrs

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Athena Brown 1) The US is not a patriarchal society.

2) Men are not the primary aggressors in sexual assault.

https://4thwavers.wordpress.com/2015/04/21/a-response-to-rape-culture-part-2of5/

A Response to Rape Culture, part 2 of 5

4thwavers.wordpress.com

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Megan Elizabeth Athena, yes it is a patriarchal society and yes men are the primary aggressors in sexual assault. Look up the statistics of who rapists are please. Over 90% are male.

Like · Reply · 4 · 9 hrs · Edited

Megan Elizabeth Here, I did it for you. According to “exploring the dimensions of human sexuality” by Greenberg Breuss and Haffner, 93.7% of rapists are male and 6.3% are female. Rape is overwhelmingly a male-committed crime. Also, 99% of women and 85% of men are raped by a male according to a study by the Boston Area Rape Crisis Center.

Like · Reply · 1 · 7 hrs · Edited

Madolyn D Jenkins Athena Brown WHAT PLANET HAVE YOU BEEN LIVING ON!!! WHAT AN IGNORANT STATEMENT!!1 [RAWWWRRRRR!!!]

Like · Reply · 4 · 8 hrs

Megan Elizabeth YES MADOLYN YES

Like · Reply · 8 hrs

Erin McClellan GTFO Athena wow.

Like · Reply · 1 · 8 hrs

Giancarlo Jusino Sánchez In those studies rape is defined as the act of penetrating the mouth, vagina, or anus. Essentially, females are excluded by definition.

Like · Reply · 5 hrs

Athena Brown You think we live in a patriarchy? Fine. Lets go over this step by step.

[Sh*t’s about to get real.]

First we’ll begin by using the absolute loosest definition of patriarchy so that it has the greatest possible chance of survival against rational inquiry; it’s a system wherein “masculinity is favored over femininity”. That’s it! That’s the only definition we’re using.

If that were true:

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— Why is it totally okay to beat a man in public, but men can’t even LOOK at a woman without it being labeled and denounced? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRCS6GGhIRc

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— Why would we have laws allowing women to file charges of sexual harassment because of a swimsuit calendar in your cubicle? http://ehsdailyadvisor.blr.com/2012/06/can-you-recognize-sexual-harassment-when-you-see-it/

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— Why would we lower the physical requirements of women joining police departments (http://www.pstc.nh.gov/faqs.htm), the military (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_Physical_Fitness_Test), and remove tests for fire departments altogether (http://nypost.com/2014/12/11/fdny-drops-physical-test-requirement-amid-low-female-hiring-rate/), even when it’s been repeatedly demonstrated that women who actually bothered training would have no such need? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3fD-L-Gdjg

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— Why would I, as a woman, be allowed to board the bus ahead of someone who was clearly standing in line before me? Why is it when I drop something, three different men reach to pick it up? Why am I always allowed to use the restroom when the sign clearly says “no public restroom”? Why do I not have to pay for my own meals on dates? Why can I use the men’s room if there’s someone in the lady’s room, yet if a man tried that, he’d probably be arrested? http://www.katu.com/news/local/Portland-business-owner-in-battleover-bathroom-access-260064661.html

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— Why are convicted killers of women more likely to get the death penalty? In a patriarchy. Where masculinity is more valued than femininity. http://www.presstelegram.com/article/20150627/NEWS/150628436

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— Why are women almost never given the death penalty? In a patriarchy. Where femininity is not as valued as masculinity. http://www.businessinsider.com/women-and-the-death-penalty-2013-9

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— Why do we punish men just for the accusation of rape, but there’s virtually no recourse at all towards women who falsely accuse men of rape? If we valued men and not women, shouldn’t this be… reversed somehow?

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— Why would the suicide rate for men be 3 times higher than for women? In a society where they’re more valued? https://www.afsp.org/understanding-suicide/facts-and-figures

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— Why are you able to stand up in public, anywhere in the modern day US, and shout “WOMEN ARE SMARTER THAN MEN!” – and get applause, yet if you did that same exact thing and shouted men were smarter than women, you’d get beaten up? No need for hyperlinks here – just go out and try it yourself.

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— Why is it I can walk into a club wearing lipstick and eyeliner and have men fawn over me, yet for a man to have women fawn over him, he’d have to be a billionaire? What does money matter when men are more valued than women?

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— Why would the Justice Department have an entire branch set up just for violence against women, even though domestic violence has been shown repeatedly to happen at equal rates to both men and women? http://www.justice.gov/ovw

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— Why would this happen? https://nationalparentsorganization.org/blog/3977-researcher-what-hap-3977

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— Why would we have Rape Shield laws?  http://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/rape-shield-laws.html.  How did those get passed in a patriarchy?

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— If a building is on fire, how many people would rush in, risking their lives, to save Bob, the big fat bald-headed accountant? How many would rush in to save Tammy, the bikini model? Almost everyone goes for the model – but why, when Bob is more valuable because penis *cough* I MEAN “patriarchy”?

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— If a woman is inside her house naked, and a man walks by and looks in the window, he’s a peeping tom, and gets arrested. Yet if it’s a man inside the house naked and a woman walks by, it’s still the man who gets arrested. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JRdFf8qtSc

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— Why is almost 3 times as much spent on breast cancer than on prostate cancer? http://dailycaller.com/2010/10/05/breast-cancer-receives-much-more-research-funding-publicity-than-prostate-cancer-despite-similar-number-of-victims/

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— Why are we all okay with men being called nearly ever name under the sun (http://verbalabuseofmen.com/ ), but we need to “ban bossy”? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ban_Bossy

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— I have a pass that allows me to eat dinner at some of the shelters around town.  Every evening when dinner is served, the women get to go first.  Why?  When we’re not as valued?
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— Why does 97% of alimony cases go to women?  http://www.forbes.com/sites/emmajohnson/2014/11/20/why-do-so-few-men-get-alimony/ – shouldn’t it go to men?  Who are in power?  Who are in charge?  Who can just FORCE THE WOMAN to hand over her money and belongings to the man after a divorce?  (You know, like they do in the middle east?)

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If you want to see what patriarchy looks like, just imagine a world where we flip all of these around. Imagine living in a country where is the exact opposite of everything we have in the US now. That might arguably be a “patriarchy”.

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Is there any such place on earth that exists right now? Are there places where women are treated like trash just for being women? Why, yes, there is, as a matter of fact, glad you asked!!

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somalia

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yemen

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria

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And that’s probably the best indicator that we DON’T have that in the US. And that’s the answer to the original question put forward; yes, patriarchy is real, but not in any developed first world nation. WE DO NOT HAVE PATRIARCHY IN THE US!

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The job 4th Wave Feminists have in front of us is to acknowledge legitimate women’s issues and get to work on them, while debunking the myths created by the 3rd Wave that hurt everyone.

Reaction To Women Abusing Men In Public

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Like · Reply · Remove Preview · 5 hrs

Athena Brown As for
>> “Here, I did it for you. According to “exploring the dimensions of human sexuality” by Greenberg Breuss and Haffner, 93.7% of rapists are male and 6.3% are female. Rape is overwhelmingly a male-committed crime.”

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^^^ This conflicts with absolutely all other peer reviewed literature, especially that coming from the Rape Abuse and Incest National Network, the Bureau of Justice Statistics, and the FBI. So either all of the statistics in our judicial system are completely wrong, or the Greenberg study is flawed.

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But of course I’m not going to use a simple dichotomy as an attempt to dodge. Link me to the actual study. I googled the title and name, and it appears to have come from a book.

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I’d rather you link to the actual study, if you don’t mind, and we’ll go through and look at the methodology. I’ll post relevant parts of the study here to show whether they either do or don’t logically follow.

Like · Reply · 4 hrs

Barbara Mislan Athena Brown are you kidding? An obscure reference to a man fired because of a calendar confirms we don’t have Patriarchy? Haha ok.

Here you are – 9 out of 10 rape victims are women. References at the bottom.

https://rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims

Who are the Victims? | RAINN | Rape, Abuse and Incest National…

rainn.org

Like · Reply · 52 mins

Athena Brown

1) I listed nearly 20 different examples and provided links for nearly all of them, and you’re pretending like I provided only one.

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2) The example you’re referring to is a criterion for sexual harassment in the workplace, as advised by Business and Legal Resources, and applies to every workplace all across the United States. How is that “obscure”?

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I get that you’re a 3rd Waver and your worldview demands that you conform specifically to that particular narrative, but are you really unaware of the creationist tactics you’re using here?

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3) The claim was not how many victims are women. It was Megan Elizabeth who claimed 90% of rapist were male. But besides that, the claim being made in RAINN’s own report comes from

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“U.S. Department of Justice. 2003 National Crime Victimization Survey. 2003”

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— it’s easy to google (which I’m sure you didn’t, because your goal is not to understand the actual truth, but to reinforce a preconceived narrative). You can read the actual report they’re using as a source here: http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv03.pdf

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It’s worth noting that according to these numbers, rape accounted for a whopping 0.07% victim rate in 2003. How’s that pan out for your famous 1 in 5 number?

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But anyway, I’ll let you look at the report, and you tell me what’s wrong with the 9 out of 10 number. HINT: the answer’s actually already been given to you in this thread.

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(and if you’re *REALLY* slow, here’s another hint: https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/recent-program-updates/new-rape-definition-frequently-asked-questions )

Michelle Mullen Athena Brown So you think WOMEN rule the world? Really? No. This IS a patriarchal society, because men have most of the power in it. Women are making gains, but we have to FIGHT for every single thing we get. That includes the right of bodily autonomy. In this society (and it will get even worse if the rightwing “christians” have their way), the dead have more bodily autonomy than women, especially if we get pregnant. You can deny it all you want, but it’s the truth. You’re entitled to your own opinion, but you can’t present that opinion as fact. And while women CAN rape, it is BY FAR men who do it the most – and then try to excuse it many times with crap like “what was she wearing,” “was she drinking,” etc. Victim blaming (when they even admit that a woman IS a victim of rape and don’t try to change the definition of rape) at its worst. Anyone who tries to dispute that is delusional.

Like · Reply · 2 · 7 hrs

Erin McClellan And don’t fucking insult people’s intelligence either, you ableist jerk.

Like · Reply · 1 hr

Athena Brown >> Athena Brown So you think WOMEN rule the world?

^^^ No. It’s ridiculous to suggest it’s either a patriarchy or a matriarchy, as if only one or the other can exist.

We live in a mostly egalitarian constitutional republic where everyone can participate in public events and free elections (though some elements of racism still do exist, and men clearly don’t have the same power as women).

>> This IS a patriarchal society, because men have most of the power in it.

^^^ Again, I just provided you some 20 examples showing where women have the power. I’ve yet to see any instance where exclusively men have “power”.

>> That includes the right of bodily autonomy.

^^^ Roe v Wade has existed since 1973. If men had power, why did it pass? If men have power, why don’t they just overturn the ruling?

Oh, right, because women can vote, and women’s interests groups can stop them.

>> That includes the right of bodily autonomy. In this society (and it will get even worse if the rightwing “christians” have their way)

^^^ But why haven’t they gotten their way over the last 40 years? If men have all the power?

>> You’re entitled to your own opinion, but you can’t present that opinion as fact.

^^^ I gave you 20 DOCUMENTED EXAMPLES!!!! Seriously!

You haven’t presented any facts. Show me some evidence where “men have all the power”.

>> And while women CAN rape, it is BY FAR men who do it the most

^^^ According to whom? Earlier I posted statistics from the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the Bureau of Justice Statistics, among many other sources, demonstrating that this wasn’t the case (I guess the FBI criminal database counts as opinion because it disagrees with your narrative?)

>> and then try to excuse it many times with crap like “what was she wearing,” “was she drinking,” etc.

^^^ Over the last 60 years, there has never been 1 single instance in any mainstream media ever published (TV, magazines, newspaper, radio, etc) where rape was reported, and either of those statements were presented by the report as representing a consensus view.

That’s a fact. Show me 1 single instance where such a thing was reported and was accepted as mostly true by the general public.

What’s really mind blowing here is that a conviction of rape carried with it the death penalty until 1977. WHY ON EARTH would that happen, if men had all the power and we lived in a patriarchy?

Why would rape STILL be punishable by death in 2 states?

……… in a patriarchy? (make that example “opinion” number 21.)

>> Victim blaming (when they even admit that a woman IS a victim of rape and don’t try to change the definition of rape)

^^^ Honestly, in the post before this one, I even posted a link to where they changed the definition of rape in 2014.

You are literally not even reading what I’m posting. You’re reading 3 sentences, then firing off with nonsense I’ve already corrected.

>> Anyone who tries to dispute that is delusional.

^^^ https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/recent-program-updates/new-rape-definition-frequently-asked-questions — yes, delusional.

If reality doesn’t fit your story, then REALITY ISN’T REAL.

Like · Reply · 1 min · Edited

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Then I went to dinner at PRM, and when I got back, the thread was deleted.

BUT NOT ANYMORE TROLOLOLOLOL!!!!

So like I said, feel free to link this post anytime you need to check a 3rd Waver back into reality “delusion”.

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