What Happens When They Just. Cannot. Win.

So recently, I was a part of a facebook group called Free Thinking Atheist Females.  You can see the group here: “https://www.facebook.com/groups/1558638774398805/

The group name is pretty ironic, as you’ll see in just a moment. [Update July 3rd, 2016: I’ve seen that some of these posts did not transfer very well from facebook to the site.  I’ll eventually find time to go into the coding page and figure out what’s going on and how to make it display correctly.]

Below is a discussion we had on the religion of feminism.  My user name is of course Athena Brown.

After I posted this, the members of this group decided to send notices to facebook and to wordpress, accusing me of the typical things you might expect, and tried to get either my facebook account banned, or my site taken down.  After being unable to do either of these, and finding out that the whining screaming crying feminist routine wasn’t going to work against A FEMINIST WEBSITE, a few of them messaged me and decided to politely ask that I change their names.  I didn’t have to, but after leaving them up for a few days, I decided to go ahead and change their names.  It feels overly mean to keep them embarrassed for longer than a few days.

Anyway, sit back and enjoy.

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    • Ms Cupcake
      7 hrs

      ‘…For an entire week, I got to see what it is like to be treated with respect. As a man, I could use the same words and be met with discussion, disagreement, or even nothing at all, instead of insults. I became an equal human being, one whose voice deserved to be heard.

      Dehumanizing “feminists” and “social justice warriors” also dehumanizes me and so many others because we are not just those labels, we are people.’

      What Happened When I Posed As a Man on Twitter
      For one week, I got to see what it’s like to be treated with respect online.
      alternet.org

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      • Actually A Nice Person and 8 others like this.
    • Actually A Nice Person Thank you for doing this. I, too, am a fat, white female. I’ve been called names (“ew u look disgusting” by someone who obviously didn’t have a handle on grammar, and only the default avatar on Google Plus), ridiculed, and dismissed simply for being a woman. I hope your article enlightens at least a few.
      6 hrs · Like
    • Athena Brown What really gets me is how I was a man for 33 years, and I was treated as utterly worthless. I was never good enough, I was laughed at, disposable, and reminded just how worthless and disposable I was on a fairly routine basis.

      The day I became a woman, all that changed, and everyone treated me with respect.

      However, I realize that my personal experience is only my personal experience. **Nobody** would accept my personal experience as proof of Jesus or the God of the Bible, right?

      This inspired me to start getting involved in actual research on the subject, and would eventually result in publishing a peer-reviewed book on feminist theory.

      Still, I see things like this, and just shake my head.

      3 hrs · Edited · Like
    • Athena Brown I know it’s unthinkable, but we **can** actually measure these things.
      .

      Athena Brown's photo.
      3 hrs · Like
    • Athena Brown

      Athena Brown's photo.
      3 hrs · Like
    • [[And here’s where the fun starts]]
    • Best Feminist Ever Your research is incomplete at best and your dismissive, disrespectful rants about how much better women have it are tiresome. You spent most of your life as a man. I’m sorry, but you don’t have a basis for comparison. Your entire experience is invalid for comparison, because you were not raised a female, so you came from gender privilege to begin with.
      You have insight as a transgender person that we will never understand, just as we have experiences being raised female that you will never understand.
      I’m sorry, but it bothers me greatly that you keep posting as if you are some expert on women’s rights and you always bring up how long you were a man, as if that makes you an expert on both categories, when in reality, it makes you an expert on transgender issues, not women’s issues.
      28 mins · Like · 1

Athena Brown First, my research is neither incomplete nor dismissive. My research has passed peer review, and I’ve not dismissed anyone. Nowhere have I ever said “your personal experiences don’t count”, or disrespected anyone else’s right to have an opinion.

What I have done is corrected misinformation and misconceptions with links to empirical research. What I linked above comes from Pew Research. If this research is “incomplete”, why not address what you think is incomplete? Do you have alternative research from other sources that can be used to reach a different conclusion?

As for personal experience, I’ve spent the last 2 years as a woman. That’s quite a lot of time and personal experience that you seem to be dismissing and invalidating.

But it wouldn’t matter how long I lived as a woman, because anecdotal evidence does not equate to proof. What if a creationist dismissed your arguments against the bible because you weren’t a Christian? Would you accept that as a valid counter-argument? The only time that would be relevant is if we were discussing what experiences we’ve had as a Christian. It wouldn’t be relevant at all if discussing whether or not modern Christian morality is objectively right, or how it impacts everyone else.

Rebecca Reilly Cooper, a political philosopher at the University of Warwick, wrote an excellent article on how this technique (“You’re not a woman so STFU – academically referred to as “intersectionality”) is being used to shut down all dissenting discourse. You can see her article here: https://slaveofthepassions.wordpress.com/2013/04/15/intersectionality-and-identity-politics/

University of Pennsylvania political science professor Adolph Reed Jr. calls this the “Politics of Personal Testimony”, where social issues can only ever be understood through anecdotal experience. You can see his paper here: http://www.leftbusinessobserver.com/Antiracism.htmlTo answer this directly:>> I’m sorry, but it bothers me greatly that you keep posting as if you are some expert on women’s rights and you always bring up how long you were a man, as if that makes you an expert on both categories^^^ No, having a penis or a vagina doesn’t make me an expert on anything.Sitting down and studying materials for months at a time, reading books front to back, taking notes, discussing those notes on various forums, attending online classes, listening to lectures, investigating sources, compiling, drafting, cross referencing all those notes, then presenting those materials for review and correcting them before publishing them, is what makes me an expert.[[Sorry about the indention here.  It’s copy pasted straight from the community, so the formatting is a little tricky]]

    • Best Feminist Ever Your research is incomplete at best and your dismissive, disrespectful rants about how much better women have it are tiresome. You spent most of your life as a man. I’m sorry, but you don’t have a basis for comparison. Your entire experience is invalid for comparison, because you were not raised a female, so you came from gender privilege to begin with.
      You have insight as a transgender person that we will never understand, just as we have experiences being raised female that you will never understand.
      I’m sorry, but it bothers me greatly that you keep posting as if you are some expert on women’s rights and you always bring up how long you were a man, as if that makes you an expert on both categories, when in reality, it makes you an expert on transgender issues, not women’s issues.
      5 hrs · Like · 5
    • Athena Brown First, my research is neither incomplete nor dismissive. My research is always available for review, and I’ve not dismissed anyone. Nowhere have I ever said “your personal experiences don’t count”, or disrespected anyone else’s right to have an opinion.

      What I have done is corrected misinformation and misconceptions with links to empirical research. What I linked above comes from Pew Research. If this research is “incomplete”, why not address what you think is incomplete? Do you have alternative research from other sources that can be used to reach a different conclusion?

      As for personal experience, I’ve spent the last 2 years as a woman. That’s quite a lot of time and personal experience that you seem to be dismissing and invalidating.

      But it wouldn’t matter how long I lived as a woman, because anecdotal evidence does not equate to proof. What if a creationist dismissed your arguments against the bible because you weren’t a Christian? Would you accept that as a valid counter-argument? The only time that would be relevant is if we were discussing what experiences we’ve had as a Christian. It wouldn’t be relevant at all if discussing whether or not modern Christian morality is objectively right, or how it impacts everyone else.

      Rebecca Reilly Cooper, a political philosopher at the University of Warwick, wrote an excellent article on how this technique (“You’re not a woman so STFU – academically referred to as “intersectionality”) is being used to shut down all dissenting discourse. You can see her article here: https://slaveofthepassions.wordpress.com/2013/04/15/intersectionality-and-identity-politics/

      University of Pennsylvania political science professor Adolph Reed Jr. calls this the “Politics of Personal Testimony”, where social issues can only ever be understood through anecdotal experience. You can see his paper here: http://www.leftbusinessobserver.com/Antiracism.html

      [[These were from notes I’m working on for an up and coming post]]

      To answer this directly:

      >> I’m sorry, but it bothers me greatly that you keep posting as if you are some expert on women’s rights and you always bring up how long you were a man, as if that makes you an expert on both categories

      ^^^ No, having a penis or a vagina doesn’t make me an expert on anything.

      Sitting down and studying materials for months at a time, reading books front to back, taking notes, discussing those notes on various forums, attending online classes, listening to lectures, investigating sources, compiling, drafting, cross referencing all those notes, then presenting those materials for review and correcting them before publishing them, is what makes me an expert.

      Intersectionality and identity politics
      I’ve been avoiding wading into the more-heat-than-light discussion about feminism and intersectionality, partly…
      slaveofthepassions.wordpress.com
      4 hrs · Edited · Like · Remove Preview
    • A Girl Who Only Posted Once Twitter is still around?
      4 hrs · Like
    • Little Ray of Sunshine: If I was arguing with a Christian, I wouldn’t accept websites named “slavesofjesus” as credible sources.
      4 hrs · Like · 3
    • Feminist Expert Athena your hatred of feminism doesn’t make you a credible source, your data is tainted. Every post I’ve seen you make is very anti-feminism and anti-women.
      31 mins · Like

Athena Brown ^^^ That’s strange, considering how I’m a feminist. I even run a website called “4th Wavers” – which is 4th Wave Feminism. The site’s About Page clearly states what 4th Wave Feminism is, and what our intentions are.

I’m not sure what in the history that I’ve ever posted gives you the impression that I’m against women’s rights or advocated against legitimate women’s issues. At what point have I ever been against this?

What’s even more strange is that I’m anti-woman. Given that I’m a woman.

But that aside – lets say I did, for whatever reason, hate feminism, and was anti-woman (if that were possible). Whether or not I agree from the beginning with what you think isn’t what determines that I’m a credible source, or whether I use credible sources.

I can’t help but notice that none of the things that I’ve **actually said** are being addressed here, and instead the focus is on attacking me personally. [[This trend won’t change, by the way.  If you’re waiting for actual counter arguments, don’t hold your breath.]]

I think this has more to do with me disrupting the comfortable Third Waver narrative this page has grown accustomed to, and less with investigating the truth of claims put forward. We as atheist like to put ourselves on a pedestal above the creationist, because WE rely on EVIDENCE! We let facts and falsifiable claims determine our beliefs, and we’re always ready to change our minds when better evidence comes along. We don’t close down the conversation by saying the other side is disrespecting narratives, or resort to poisoning-the-well tactics.

……. except when one of our beliefs really are challenged. Then we close down the conversation with the exact same tactics we would decry from those very creationist.

Look over the last 30 posts in this community. How many of them actually challenge your beliefs, or force you to look at new evidence you had not previously considered? It looks more like an echo chamber, with atheist posting things for atheist that atheist agree with. That’s perfectly fine of course – I’m not criticizing that. There’s nothing wrong with agreeing over something that’s been previously established as fact. Doing this creates a sort of safe-space for us as a community.

What really guilty of here is disrupting that comfortable atmosphere, and that’s what I’m catching flack for. That’s why I’m being accused, rather than having the things I say examined and challenged. How many of you *honestly* saw those stats coming from Pew Research before now? You don’t have to say so out loud, but at least be honest to yourself. Your narrative was that women are bullied online. Then you see this contradictory information coming from a credible source plopped right in the way, and it ruins the story. Now we’re forced to reconsider what we previously thought in light of new evidence – the very thing atheist say they pride themselves on.

When I first joined this community, almost every day I found a post that was based on the Third Waver narrative. As I started refuting them and posting links to my sources, interestingly, they quit getting posted. Once every day became once or twice a week, if that. So now someone sees something from the Third Wave, they want to post it, but they think twice because they know it will be challenged openly.

This is irritating, so now I’m anti-woman. Despite being a woman.

1 min · Like
    • Feminist Expert It’s called internalized misogyny. You don’t make distinctions between what feminist you are talking about. How am I supposed to know you identify as a feminist when you post crap like this?

      Kelsey Jo Lewis's photo.
      7 mins · Like

Athena Brown ^^^ Alright then, I suppose taken totally on it’s own, an image like that *could* be confusing as to where I stand on the issues. [[It doesn’t, but I was trying to make peace, and hoping the Third Wave fanaticism would die down a bit.]]

I am also aware that 4th Wavers does need attention from a professional web-designer. I lack all such skill, and so I use wordpress, which is basically the Lego Blocks of website design. I plan to get this updated in the next few weeks by hiring someone to do it for me.

In the meantime, here’s a post that clarifies between the different kinds of feminism (as taught by accredited universities), and may help explain 4th Wave a little better.

https://4thwavers.wordpress.com/2014/08/15/what-is-feminism/

What Is Feminism?
It’s better if we define our terms right from the start. Yes, I know there are lots of different flavors of feminism……
4thwavers.wordpress.com
3 mins · Like · Remove Preview
    • Feminist Expert You are making baseless accusations against the third wave. The very fact that you say we have already reached equality shows how out of touch you are with the other women around you and the struggles they go through.
      10 mins · Like · 1

Athena Brown ^^^ I backed up all of my statements with links and sources.

I did publish a peer reviewed book on feminist theory a few months ago. My assessment is that we now have equality. This does not mean “everything is perfect for women”. There are still plenty of women’s issues that need to be addressed – however, they’re not equality issues. They’re women’s issues. That’s were our time and resources would be better spent.

I don’t think disagreeing with you automatically makes me “out of touch”. If you would like, we could openly discuss where you think women haven’t reached equality yet, and trade evidence back and forth until we reach a conclusion. I’m 100% okay and comfortable doing this, and – like any atheist should – will change my view if better evidence is presented.

We can do that in this thread, or in another thread at some future date when you feel ready, or we could skip it and agree to disagree. I’m extending the offer as a matter of transparency, and if you think it would help settle the matter. I’m not against feminism, I’m not against other people having their own view, and I’m certainly not anti-woman.

    • Best Feminist Ever Athena, you talk about women and feminism like Jane Goodall talks about chimps. Living as a woman for two years (after spending your entire life and formative years as a male) does not qualify you as an expert, nor does “researching” opinions that happen to agree with your own. The difference between you and Goodall? She actually does real research and she doesn’t go into her research looking for studies that support her viewpoint. You dismiss 3rd wave feminists, even though if it wasn’t for the 1st-3rd wave feminists, you wouldn’t have the relative freedoms you enjoy today. You and your 4th wave apologists are a disgrace to the word feminist and your attitudes are anything BUT feminist. Every post you make and every word out of your mouth showcases your misogyny.
      I have said it before and I will say it again and again, your bullshit 4th wave apologist website is not a credible source.
      3 hrs · Edited · Like · 2
    • Best Feminist Ever Also, those who know nothing about criminal justice should NEVER post anything about how “accusations of rape ruined three boys lives” because there wasn’t enough evidence to charge them criminally and because they said the sex was consensual. Before now I found you mildly annoying. After reading some of the crap on your website, you make me sick.
      I sincerely hope you never get raped and have to go through the resultant hell of the police report, the sketches and the photos and the hospital and then the court case, wherein you have to prove that you said NO, when the only witnesses are you and the asshole that raped you and he says you wanted it. Because a rapist, much like a child molestor, doesn’t usually rape people in front of an audience (aka witnesses) and DNA evidence isn’t as easy to come by as they make it out to be on those crime drama shows.
      3 hrs · Edited · Like · 2
    • Big Boss I just checked out her blog page, and wow. Just wow.
      2 hrs · Like · 3
    • Best Feminist Ever Exactly. Sometimes there just isn’t enough face palm to cover it.
      2 hrs · Edited · Like · 1

Athena Brown

>> Living as a woman for two years (after spending your entire life and formative years as a male) does not qualify you as an expert

^^^ I addressed this earlier.

Copy-pasted, I said:

—– —–
“No, having a penis or a vagina doesn’t make me an expert on anything.

Sitting down and studying materials for months at a time, reading books front to back, taking notes, discussing those notes on various forums, attending online classes, listening to lectures, investigating sources, compiling, drafting, cross referencing all those notes, then presenting those materials for review and correcting them before publishing them, is what makes me an expert.”
—– —–

>> nor does “researching” opinions that happen to agree with your own.

^^^ My book was peer reviewed, and remains open for review. So does all the content on my site. The comments sections are all open, and nothing is moderated. If you find something that’s wrong, go right ahead and point it out.

This is quite the opposite of researching only things that agree with me. If I did that, then I **COULD NOT** present all my materials freely and openly and have them withstand public scrutiny and discourse.

That’s how peer review works.

>> The difference between you and Goodall? She actually does real research and she doesn’t go into her research looking for studies that support her viewpoint.

^^^ Okay, where does she get her research then? (I know this statement was of course just rhetoric, and meant to deflect attention away from what I’m actually saying by attacking me personally – so I don’t expect an answer.)

>> You dismiss 3rd wave feminists, even though if it wasn’t for the 1st-3rd wave feminists, you wouldn’t have the relative freedoms you enjoy today.

^^^ Please name 2 things the Third Wave has done to contribute to the “freedoms I enjoy today”.

Feel free to use the link I posted earlier to make sure you don’t accidentally list something that was done by the second wave.

>> Every post you make and every word out of your mouth showcases your misogyny.

^^^ Give me 1 example please.

>> Also, those who know nothing about criminal justice should NEVER post anything about how “accusations of rape ruined three boys lives”

^^^ This is perhaps the most breath-taking thing I’ve read so far.

I didn’t just explain how criminal justice philosophy works, I actually gave an extremely long, drawn out, step-by-step analogy, in simple language that avoided advanced vocabulary to ensure that anyone would understand it.

I even borrowed heavily from AronRa’s “Foundational Falsehood’s” series to help. I used the dinosaur analogy and helped draw that towards philosophies established by John Locke and David Hume.

I mean I literally, STEP. BY. STEP. Lead you all the way through the history of how our criminal justice system came to be founded on the foundational principle of “innocent until prove guilty”……. and somehow……..

*Somehow*………

You still missed it.

And see, the thing of it is, I don’t believe for a moment that you don’t actually understand how “innocent-until-proven-guilty” works. You’re a grown woman living in a first world country who routinely logs onto the internet. I’m pretty certain that you’re educated. You at least graduated high school and most probably attended college. There’s no way you don’t understand how it works, or why it works.

So what’s breath-taking here is that you’re being THIS OBTUSE, just as a means of attacking me rather than addressing the things I’ve said – which you’ve been doing this entire thread.

You know full well that anyone accused of a crime – no matter what crime – is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. I got to hand it to you, feigning that much ignorance takes real dedication.

Keep attacking me if you want. If and when you’re ever ready to address the issues and show me where I’m wrong, let me know.

1 min · Like
    • Best Feminist Ever Are you KIDDING ME?!?!? You can’t possibly be this ignorant.
      Let me explain the criminal justice system to you, because YOU don’t get it. No. I refuse to do the work for you, so that you can continue to troll. By the way, if you post the REST of the article you cherry picked those charts from, you see that 25% of women, especially young ones, are routinely harassed online, 26% of those are sexually harassed. You are trolling and cherry picking, not only my posts, but your sources, which I’m sure is what you did for your “research.” I too can pull snippets out of a study and distort them to read what I want them to. Frankly, you are a dangerous troll and I’ve wasted enough time on you. As one of the articles you cherry picked from said, just because you call yourself something doesn’t mean you are one. You are not a feminist. Your notions of what you think 3rd wave and 4th wave feminism is are deeply flawed. You wanted links, here’s a link to an excerpt from a brilliantly written book by Jennifer Baumgardner:http://www.feminist.com/resources/artspeech/genwom/baumgardner2011.htmlWhat has the 3rd wave of feminism given you? The 3rd wave of feminism (as you call it, we just call it feminism) paved the way for transfeminism, for one thing. As for giving you an example of your misogyny, there’s no point, because it’s in everything you say! I could point it out, (many of us have already) but it doesn’t matter, because you still wouldn’t get it, because you don’t think what you stand for is misogyny.
      You say you support peer review? THIS IS PEER REVIEW. [[Really.  This is peer review.]]
      Any good researcher knows that to properly research ANYTHING, you go into your research trying to prove yourself wrong. If you can, you revise your hypothesis and try again.
      Even math can come up with the wrong answer if you don’t follow the proper steps.
      I’m not wasting any more time on your trolling. You think that because you link to your crappy little misogynistic website that you are relevant?
      Those poor boys. Raped a girl and it ruined their lives. Women don’t lie about being raped. They lie about not being raped, or they are simply silent.
      You think you’re being controversial but you’re not, you’re just regurgitating men’s rights propaganda.

      IS THERE A FOURTH WAVE? DOES IT MATTER? BY JENNIFER…
      feminist.com
      24 mins · Like · 1

Athena Brown According to Pew Research, 22% of women are harassed online (in the far left category), while 32% of men are. But then my point wasn’t that women aren’t harassed.

If I’m cherry picking anything, then I’m sure you – or anyone else in this community, or in any other community, or any professor from any university, or any specialist in any field – can come here and show me how the data is wrong.

My book is free, by the way. I send it to whoever wants a copy. You’re free to scrutinize every word of every chapter. It’s copyrighted to me – Athena Brown – so you’re very welcomed to show the entire world what I got wrong.

Anyone is.

My site and my book are both open for public discourse.

That’s. How. Peer. Review. Works.

>> The 3rd wave of feminism (as you call it, we just call it feminism) paved the way for transfeminism, for one thing.

^^^ First, transfeminism got it’s start with the second wave. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfeminism .

Second, I asked for 2 things.

Still waiting for those 2.

>> As for giving you an example of your misogyny, there’s no point, because it’s in everything you say!

^^^ Hello.

(Okay, I guess that was misogyny then.)

>> because you don’t think what you stand for is misogyny.

^^^ Actually no, I don’t think empowering women is misogyny.

I work in mental health. The definition of empowerment that we use is “facilitating hope and recovery without detracting from personal responsibility”. That means not enabling a person towards a victim-mindset by reinforcing wrong information.

There are now more than 50 peer reviewed papers on the wage gap. Absolutely all of them – even ones published by feminist organizations – have found the wage gap to be a direct result of women’s personal decisions. That’s why in 2008, women across the country earned 8% more than men. In Atlanta Georgia, women earned 121% more. This wouldn’t be possible if this weren’t true.

EMPOWERING a woman means encouraging her to go the extra mile and put in competitive hours. DISEMPOWERING means encouraging her to feel bad and believe that things are entirely out of her hands.

This is the definition currently used in peer support. I am licensed as a peer support specialist under Oregon administrative law.

But hey, if it disagrees with you, it’s misogyny, so the entire field of psychology is also misogyny.

Otherwise, I’m still waiting for an example of something I said that was actually misogyny.

>> You say you support peer review? THIS IS PEER REVIEW.

^^^ No, telling me everything I say is wrong is not peer review.

Going through the actual links I’ve posted, and showing where they are flawed by presenting alternative evidence that is better supported by the data, is peer review.

What you’re doing now is called a tantrum.

>> Any good researcher knows that to properly research ANYTHING, you go into your research trying to prove yourself wrong. If you can, you revise your hypothesis and try again.

^^^ Right, this is the 5th or 6th time I’m saying this now – all my materials are peer reviewed.

We have deliberately gone through them and tried to find errors and mistakes. So far, we’ve straightened out most of the data, and cannot find any further errors. What you see on 4th Wavers now is correct based on the facts and evidence we currently have.

If you find something wrong, you can show me where it’s wrong, and present an alternative case better supported by data.

OR – keep telling me all the peer reviewed data is still cherry picked, just because you say it is, and that I’m a misogynist “just because”. I’m sure you will, despite having just explained to you what empowerment actually means (at least from a mental health standpoint).

>> Those poor boys. Raped a girl and it ruined their lives. Women don’t lie about being raped.

^^^ In 1985, Charles P. McDowell conducted a study of 1,218 rape reports filed in the US Air Force.

Of these, 460 were found to be proven by legal standards, but 212 turned out to be false allegations. And this time, the accusers actually gave their reasons! 20% claimed they did it out of spite or revenge, another 20% claimed it was to compensate for feelings of guilt or shame, 13% said they thought they might be pregnant, 12% said it was to conceal a love affair, and the remaining had various other reasons.

You can see the study here: http://www.mediaradar.org/mcdowell_kanin_credible.php

Now, you can look through that study, meticulously do the research, find the errors, and present those errors (we’ve done this and couldn’t find any)

– or –

You can NOT do that, and keep calling me names. Whichever one’s easier.

Transfeminism – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Transfeminism, also written trans feminism, has…
en.wikipedia.org
Just now · Like · Remove Preview

Athena Brown Also, I just finished the link.

From earlier:

—— ——
Your notions of what you think 3rd wave and 4th wave feminism is are deeply flawed. You wanted links, here’s a link to an excerpt from a brilliantly written book by Jennifer Baumgardner:
http://www.feminist.com/…/genwom/baumgardner2011.html
—– —–

^^^ I can’t find anything in the link that disputes what I’ve put forward about either wave. Feel free to copy-paste what you find to be directly refuting what I’ve stated elsewhere.  [[Was about to say “-OR- keep calling me names”, but thought that would be too inflammatory.  Also, keep track of the name calling, that comes up again in minute when I speak with one of the mods.]]

IS THERE A FOURTH WAVE? DOES IT MATTER? BY JENNIFER…
feminist.com
Just now · Like · Remove Preview

Best Feminist Ever For every bullshit source that exists for men’s rights propaganda, there are no less than three that will debunk your crap.
Stop citing your own website. It’s just click baiting and we’re onto you.

40 mins · Like · 2

Athena Brown

>> For every bullshit source that exists for men’s rights propaganda, there are no less than three that will debunk your crap.

^^^ Okay, show them.

That’s how peer review works. For the 7th or 8th time. I’ve lost count.

>> Stop citing your own website. It’s just click baiting and we’re onto you.

^^^ The last study I referenced came from the United States Air Force.

… the USAF… counts as my own website?

Holy shit, I ROCK!!!

1 min · Like
    • Little Ray of Sunshine: No use in arguing. She’s so caught up in her own idea of things, she can’t accept any criticism. When you have actual links, she feigns ignorance or refutes them with her website. Just ignore her and don’t let her use this group as a platform for her twisted logic.
      4 mins · Like · 1

Athena Brown ^^^ Okay, here’s straight from the link that was posted:

—– —–
The Third Wave (Approximately 1988–2010)
The Third Wave grew out of an enormous cultural shift. By the late 1980s, a cohort of women and men who’d been raised with the gains, theories, flaws, and backlash of the feminist movement were beginning to come of age. Whether or not these individual men and women were raised by self-described feminists—or called themselves feminists—they were living feminist lives: Females were playing sports and running marathons, taking charge of their sex lives, being educated in greater numbers than men, running for office, and working outside the home. For those who were consciously feminist, the splits of the 1980s formed the architecture of their theories. Kimberlé Crenshaw’s description of “intersectionality” drew on the work of the Combahee River Collective and advanced the idea that gender might be just one of many entry points for feminism.
—— ——

What do you see there that refutes what I stated about the Third Wave?

See, when I say the 3rd Wave openly celebrates violence against men, posting me a site that then says “they’re playing sports and running marathons” does not refute what I said.

It is possible to run marathons and celebrate violence against men.

Logic.

My website links to the Department of Justice, FBI database, US Air Force, and even feminist agencies to back each claim I make. I do not say anything that is “my own idea”. Each statement made is backed by research, and sources are always given.

It’s amazing how that’s being twisted into all being “my own idea”.

Just now · Like

[[I went to Safeway for a little while.  I come back and all my comments are deleted.  Nice!  Can’t win a debate?  DELETE ALL HER COMMENTS!  No warnings or messages or anything.  Here’s the last few comments in the thread.]]

  • Big Boss Her comments have been deleted. smile emoticon
    42 mins · Like
  • Athena Brown Why were my comments deleted?
    26 mins · Like
  • Big Boss They were deleted after a discussion between admins.
    23 mins · Like
Athena Brown It’s okay, I’ve messaged you.
22 mins · Like
[[Now, nobody else’s comments were deleted.  If they had deleted the entire thread, citing everyone getting out of hand, that would have been fine and I would have just moved on.  But all of *MY* comments were selectively chosen for deletion, while nobody elses was.  So I wanted to find out why.  Here’s the discussion with the mod.]]
—————————————————-
  • Conversation started Saturday
  • Athena Brown

    6/13, 9:45pm

    Athena Brown

    Seeing as how you’re referring to it as a “discussion between the admins”, would you like to tell me here?

    What exactly did I say that was offensive or against the rules?

  • 6/13, 9:50pm

    Big Boss

    It was determined that your comments indicated no desire for real discussion.

  • Athena Brown

    6/13, 9:52pm

    Athena Brown

    What was I not discussing? I answered everyone

    >> in
    ^^^ point
    >> by
    ^^^ point

    fashion, and backed every claim with sources.

    And why was only my comments deleted and no one elses?

  • 6/13, 9:53pm

    Big Boss

    You continually hawked your own website, persisted in posting misogynistic comments [[Well those reasons sure changed fast]]

  • Athena Brown

    6/13, 9:55pm

    Athena Brown

    Alrighty, I hawked my own website.

    But can you please show me just 1 single misogynistic comment?

    Please show me just one place where I was misogynist. [[Wanted to see if they could cite anything for the record.]]

  • 6/13, 10:00pm

    Big Boss

    The comments were offensive because you dismissed outright any attempt to dispute your assertions and in fact [[I kept winning the debate]], dismissed everyone else in a condescending way [[Remember that name calling from earlier?]], rejecting their own experiences and their own truth [[I addressed this early on, and linked to Rebecca Cooper’s site, explaining that lived experiences =/= empirical evidence.]] You may think that you were approaching it in an “academic” way, but your comments were highly triggering for many of us who have faced discrimination, harassment and assault. You continually rejected any comments contrary to what you have on your website.

  • 6/13, 10:01pm

    Big Boss

    You basically said that we were lying. [[I disagree with repeated accusations that I’m a misogynist, and therefore, I’m calling them liars.]]

    You are more than welcome to your opinion, but when it becomes divisive and adds nothing to a discussion, and in this case, completely derails the original post, a line has to be drawn.

    And no, I wasn’t the admin who deleted your comments.

    The group can be a lively bunch of women, and not everyone will agree with everyone else, but the admins try to keep it a safe place for everyone.

    =============================================

    My comments were deleted because they were presented with facts, and when that happens, silencing opposition with censorship is the only way to win.

    The comments section on every post you find here is always open, and I don’t censor anything.  So if anyone wants to pick up the discussion here, you’re entirely free to – and don’t worry, I won’t go through and delete ONLY YOUR comments when I start getting frustrated in order to make it look like I’ve won.

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5 thoughts on “What Happens When They Just. Cannot. Win.

  1. Feminist 1: “I posed as a male for 7 days on twitter and let me tell you about all the advantages men have that I know thanks to my week long effort on a social media website where all of my interactions are limited to 140 characters or less.”
    Other Feminists: “You’re so fucking right!”
    Athena: “I’ve lived 33 years as a male and 2 years as a female in the real world and have some insights upon how I’ve been treated differently every day of the previous 2 years.”
    Feminists: “You have no idea what it’s like, you don’t have enough experience to make that call.”

    Ah, Feminism, where 7 days as a man online is all you need to know about a man, but if you’ve not lived your whole life as a woman, you’re unqualified to speak.

    Liked by 2 people

  2. I had a similar reaction in multiple groups for not “agreeing enough”. It’s scary to me that those that provide information, no matter how unconfrontational it is presented, become “trolls”. I had all but given up on discussing anything on social media, till a post about your latest article snuck through. ( I had previously chosen to unfollow all but my closest friends and family.) This is just intuition, but it seems to me that the information age has given us all these forums, but no rules as to how to use them yet. Unlike in face to face conversation, there is no expectation of reasoned discourse. (I’ve also felt a decline in face to face civility, but more in that people just choose not to express anything at all, but again, that is a feeling I get and not based on research.) It’s unfortunate that groups, especially those that espouse reason and civil discussion, are so prone to intersectionality.

    Like

  3. This may come off as a bit of a silly question as I’m not completely aware of your past history with him (if any), but have you ever tried reaching out to Phil “Thunderf00t” Mason?

    While he is very much “anti-feminist” (specifically 3rd wave) I think he might be interested in your views, even if just to highlight the differences between the 3rd and 4th wave philosophies. There is also that he has a rather large audience, who are usually civil as long as they are treated in kind, and are usually willing to at least explore information presented to them. At least in my experience, which is obviously (by definition) only anecdotal at best 😀

    Either way, good luck in your efforts and on your path!

    Like

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